WEBVTT

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Prof: Incidentally,
in my discussion sections,

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people got too excited about
charisma.

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So we did speak a lot about
charisma.

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I ask your patience.

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We will cover some of the same
grounds, but I hope I can give

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you new jokes about charisma.

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This is one of the most
exciting features of Weber

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theory,
and probably one of--next to

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the Protestant Ethic,
right?--the one which entered

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the common language,
more than anything else. Right?

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That we all talk about
charisma, and people's charisma,

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or charismatic leaders,
all the time.

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Just like the Protestant work
ethic, which entered the popular

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vocabulary, and everybody who
has not read any Weber still

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uses the term.

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It's also very important to
come to terms with the idea of

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charisma because Weber was
suspected in the 1930s,

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'40s and '50s to be actually a
proto-fascist,

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and with the idea of charisma
advocating for a strong

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leadership for Germany,
a calling for a charismatic

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leader for Germany,
and in a way almost demanding

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Adolph Hitler.

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Well, of course,
he died in 1920;

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he could not do that.

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accused him to be an
irrationalist,

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and being a proto-fascist,
laying the ideology for Nazism

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and Adolph Hitler.

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I have to tell you that I am
not absolutely certain what

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Weber would have done in 1930 or
'33.

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I hope, like his brother,
he would not have gone for the

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fascists, or Nazis.

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But it's complicated.

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I will try to make a case that
in fact the concept of charisma

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is not quite what Adolph Hitler
was.

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So the main major themes of the
presentation today.

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First of all we will deal with
the definition of charisma;

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what is charismatic authority.

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Then we will talk about the
sources of charisma,

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where charisma is coming from,
and this is particularly

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important,
to see why Weber is actually

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not a proto-Nazi.

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Then we will be talking about
the followers of the charismatic

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leader.

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Then we will talk about
charisma as a revolutionary

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force, charisma as a vehicle of
change.

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And I think this is an
interesting idea in Weber,

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though one of the weaker points
I think of Weber theory.

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I think Karl Marx has a much
more coherent and much more

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persuasive theory about
historical change as class

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struggle,
you know, and the

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contradictions between forces
and relations of production.

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This is historically
invalidated, but a very coherent

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and very persuasive kind of
argument.

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Weber's idea of charisma as a
revolutionary force actually has

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empirical relevance,
but it's rather unpersuasive,

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and I will talk about this.

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And then we come to a big
problem with charisma,

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how charismatic leadership can
be routinized or transmitted

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from a charismatic leader to the
next,

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and what are the methods of
succession for a charismatic

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leader.

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So, I mean, those of you who
were in my discussion sections,

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you can see it will not be just
a regurgitation of the

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discussion sections.

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And I don't know what happened
in other discussion sections;

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also the charisma may have come
up.

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This makes people move;
minds move a great deal.

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So I'll just step back a minute
and again revisit the idea of

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different types of domination
and authority.

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And this is the simplest scheme
I can come up with.

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But I think this is a good one.

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I'll copyright it;
I did it.

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>

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So the question is where is
obedience due to?

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It can be due to rules,
impersonal rules,

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or it can be due to a personal
master, to an individual.

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That's the big story. Right?

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And if it is due to rules,
that's when we are talking

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about legal-rational authority--
and this will be the topic--and

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bureaucratic rule,
modern liberal democratic

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system or modern
not-that-democratic system,

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but systems which still do have
rules of law.

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There are actually
authoritarian systems which do

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operate with rules of law,
where authoritarian leaders

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actually do themselves follow
the law and take law seriously

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and implement laws seriously.

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So legal-rational authority
does not mean liberal democracy.

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It simply means that this is a
system in which there is a rule

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of law, even if the leader
itself can be not particularly

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democratic.

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Democracy, as we understand it,
is a very recent phenomenon.

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Universal suffrage in the
Western world became widespread

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since the 1920s,
and it really became the

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dominant form--
right?--of political rule much,

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much later;
I would say more like after the

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Second World War.

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I mean, Switzerland,
for instance,

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gave rights for women to vote
just very recently.

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So well, you know,
democracy is a--liberal

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democracy--is a very new
invention.

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And legal-rational authority is
not such a new invention.

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There was a rule of law in
England going back to the Orange

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Revolution.

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Right?

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It's going back to the late
seventeenth century.

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There was rule of law in the
United States before the late

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eighteenth and nineteenth
century,

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though there was no liberal
democracy as we understand that.

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Right?

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There was no universal suffrage
at all.

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So, I mean, you could have rule
of law without democracy.

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But that's still very different
from a system where you obey a

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master.

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There are two ways how you obey
a master.

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You obey because the tradition
appointed that master--

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and that's what we were talking
about Tuesday--

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or because the master is
believed to have some

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charismatic features.

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I also mentioned it last time:
that the differences between

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the three types of authority--
legal-rational authority,

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traditional authority,
and charismatic authority--do

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not have the same,
I'll use the term,

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ontological status.

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Right?

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The two big forms in history
are traditional authority which

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through rationalization
eventually becomes

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legal-rational authority,
and charismatic authority

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usually is a transitory stage.

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Charismatic authority is a
charismatic leader emerges in

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times of great need,
desperation and need for

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change, and charismatic leaders,
if they deliver--you know,

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as long as they deliver--
they remain leaders.

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If they stop delivering
charisma is taken away from

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them.

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And it is extremely difficult
for a charismatic leader to

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establish an ongoing system of
charismatic authority--

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right?--because it will be very
difficult to transfer their own

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personal charisma to somebody
else--

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right?--and to keep running a
charismatic system.

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Okay, so that's about
generally, you know,

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what is charisma?

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As I said, this really we keep
using the term all the time.

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The last eighteen months we
used it a lot because of

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candidate and later President
Obama.

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And there is probably nobody in
this room who at one point did

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not say something about Obama's
charisma;

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or, you know,
if you did not like him,

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the lack of his charisma.

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Right?

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But, you know,
this was a commonly used term.

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Now this is coming from Weber,
because he dug this term out

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from a rather obscure
theological language,

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where charisma actually
referred to some superhuman

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qualities of individuals,
I would say almost semi-gods,

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who have some very personal and
exclusive relationship to God,

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and therefore,
like any other human beings,

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they kind of can talk to God
and then they can interpret

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God's will to the people;
these were charismatic leaders.

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So, in the most classical
definition, charisma refers

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rather to the great founders of
great world religions;

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that's what charisma,
in initial meaning,

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meant.

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So Mohammed,
Moses, or Jesus,

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they had charisma,
because they had a special

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access to God.

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Right?

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Moses got the two tables from
God.

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Right?

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He could not see the face of
God but nevertheless got the two

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tables from God.

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Nobody else could walk
up--right?--there on the

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mountain and get these tables,
you know, and tell people,

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"This is the law."

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Right?

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It was only Moses who could.

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Right?

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And Jesus had a very specific
relationship to God.

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Right?

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Christian belief,
was even the Son of God,

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embodiment of God.

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And undoubtedly,
you know, it is believed by

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Christians that Jesus could
actually convey to us what God

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wants us to do.

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Right?

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Had this very special unique
charismatic appeal.

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And Mohammed had this special
appeal to God.

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Or if you are Mormon,
then Mr. Smith had this very

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unique--right?--relationship to
God.

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At one point an angel came,
you know, got a new sacred

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book, a continuation of the
Bible, left it with Mr. Smith.

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He translated it,
and when the translation was

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gone, you know,
the angel came and took it

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away.

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This was a charisma--right?--a
very specific superhuman;

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it did not happen to any other
human being, only to Smith.

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Right?

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That is the initial notion of
the meaning.

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But now Weber makes it here a
little- kind of a broader

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conception,
and he said--right?--that

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charisma will be applied to a
certain quality of an individual

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personality.

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It's important still an
individual who is considered

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extraordinary and treated as
endowed with supernatural,

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superhuman.

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This sounds like the original
definition.

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But then he goes on and he
said, "Or at least

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exceptional powers and
qualities."

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Right?

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And these are regarded as of
divine origin--that's the

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founders of the great
religion--or exemplary;

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he modifies that. Right?

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It can be just exemplary.

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You don't have to believe that
this is semi-god or the

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embodiment of God.

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You only have to believe that
this is an exemplary being who

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has some exceptional abilities,
exceptional qualities,

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and that will qualify that you
will call somebody a charismatic

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person or a charismatic leader.

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Let me also underline one more
term from these quotations which

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is extremely important.

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He said the person is
considered to be

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extraordinary and treated
as endowed with superhuman or

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exemplary features.

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So--and what I think is
extremely important to see,

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that Weber does not tell us
that this individual is actually

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extraordinary,
that it is actually superhuman.

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In a way it is in the eye of
the beholder.

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It is among the followers who
attribute--right?--to these

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qualities, to somebody.

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So in a way charismatic leaders
are being made by the followers.

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Well, and what is the source of
charisma?

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This is now making it even more
clearer and more precise.

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It rests in recognition.

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You have to recognize it,
charisma.

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So the relationship of charisma
is in the interpersonal

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relationship between the leaders
and the followers,

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and in this interaction is
charisma being created.

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Right?

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It is not given by the grace of
lord--right?--to an individual

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person.

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It is created by those who are
subjected to authority.

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Right?

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And it's also important that
those who follow the charismatic

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leaders are usually seen as
followers or disciples.

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Right?

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They have some extraordinary
commitment to this leader.

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Right?

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This leader creates excitement
in them, and this excitement,

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what creates the community of
the followers or the community

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of the disciples.

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Right?

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And well this was one of the
reasons why many people in the

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last eighteen months regarded
Barack Obama as a charismatic

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leader,
because he was capable to

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appearing in a crowd,
and moved the

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crowd--right?--create excitement
in the crowd.

16:50.030 --> 16:50.820
Right?

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He created
followers--right?--almost one

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would say disciples,
as such.

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Now but the charisma can be
withdrawn.

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This is again a very important
idea in Weber.

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He said if the proof of success
alludes the leader for too long,

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it is likely that the
charismatic authority will

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disappear.

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Right?

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So the charismatic leader gives
you--

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right?--promises that it will
produce miracles,

17:29.660 --> 17:35.130
and then the charismatic leader
does not producing these

17:35.126 --> 17:41.536
miracles--
right?--he must work miracles,

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said Weber--
then the people withdraw the

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recognition of charisma from the
leader,

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and the master simply becomes a
private person,

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an ordinary person;
it loses its individual appeal.

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Well what is very
important--right?--

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that the charismatic leader has
to promise you miracles--

18:13.759 --> 18:18.509
right?--has to promise you that
it will deliver something what

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you desperately need.

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Right?

18:20.848 --> 18:25.228
Charisma is deeply rooted in
the conditions in the situation

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in which a charismatic leader is
being constructed by the

18:29.381 --> 18:30.421
followers.

18:30.420 --> 18:35.480
When you are in a desperate
need, then you are looking for a

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charismatic leader which can
solve this problem what you

18:40.205 --> 18:43.035
think is almost unresolvable.

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Then the charismatic leader
will come and will promise you

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that this problem,
that the charismatic leader

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will be able to solve,
because of its extraordinary

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characteristics.

18:57.308 --> 19:02.918
And again if I can come back
again to the last elections,

19:02.920 --> 19:05.340
that was, you know,
clearly the case,

19:05.338 --> 19:15.918
the way how candidate Obama was
capable to win the elections.

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You remember one of the key
words--right?--which

19:22.314 --> 19:28.164
characterized the campaign:
hope, change,

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yes we can.

19:30.750 --> 19:34.570
I mean, these are very typical
elements--right?--of a

19:34.565 --> 19:35.955
charismatic appeal.

19:35.959 --> 19:36.619
Right?

19:36.618 --> 19:39.108
You are in need,
you want hope,

19:39.111 --> 19:43.851
you want to have business as
not usual, you want to have a

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new type of business,
now this is what I promise you.

19:48.163 --> 19:49.163
Right?

19:49.160 --> 19:52.540
Change and hope,
and I empower you.

19:52.538 --> 19:55.028
I am the person who can empower
you.

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Right?

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It can be done. Right?

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We can do it. Right?

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Yes, it can be done.

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Hope, change, yes can be done.

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These are very typical
elements--right?--what a

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charismatic leader does produce.

20:11.910 --> 20:16.200
In recent history other
charismatic leaders,

20:16.200 --> 20:21.300
which are probably not as
attractive in historical

20:21.300 --> 20:25.910
perspective as Obama,
did become charismatic leaders

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the same way.

20:26.890 --> 20:31.030
Fidel Castro established
charisma for himself.

20:31.028 --> 20:35.528
The Cuban society was in
desperate need for change in

20:35.529 --> 20:39.339
1960, and Fidel Castro appealed,
and he said,

20:39.336 --> 20:42.966
"Well I will bring change
to you.

20:42.970 --> 20:46.960
I will get rid of this corrupt
government.

20:46.960 --> 20:49.690
I will create equality."

20:49.690 --> 20:50.350
Right?

20:50.349 --> 20:51.769
"I will help the poor.

20:51.769 --> 20:53.089
The poor will get wealthier.

20:53.088 --> 20:55.208
I will create affluence."

20:55.213 --> 20:55.713
Right?

20:55.710 --> 20:58.240
"I will create a just and
affluent society."

20:58.238 --> 20:58.618
Right?

20:58.618 --> 21:02.968
And therefore he came up with
promises what people were

21:02.971 --> 21:08.131
looking for, and then charisma
was attributed to Fidel Castro.

21:08.130 --> 21:13.000
Adolph Hitler emerged as a
charismatic leader.

21:13.002 --> 21:13.872
Right?

21:13.868 --> 21:19.208
Germany suffered a humiliating
defeat in the First World War.

21:19.210 --> 21:23.060
Then it was hit with a Great
Depression, which hit Germany

21:23.057 --> 21:25.957
even worse than it hit the
United States.

21:25.960 --> 21:31.450
And then Adolph Hitler
appealed, though he was not

21:31.448 --> 21:36.598
quite as an attractive
personality as Obama;

21:36.598 --> 21:38.498
he was, you know,
quite a ridiculous guy.

21:38.500 --> 21:40.720
But he actually said,
"Well I can solve the

21:40.719 --> 21:41.809
problems for you."

21:41.805 --> 21:42.225
Right?

21:42.230 --> 21:45.560
Defined an enemy;
"It's all Jewish

21:45.555 --> 21:46.325
conspiracy.

21:46.328 --> 21:50.368
We get rid of the Jews,
and I will turn things around.

21:50.368 --> 21:53.548
And, you know,
we will have a new

21:53.548 --> 21:55.038
empire."

21:55.038 --> 21:58.838
And there he was capable with
this problem.

21:58.838 --> 22:02.228
There was a need in the
situation where people were

22:02.233 --> 22:06.173
looking for leadership,
and they were looking for a

22:06.165 --> 22:08.895
strong leader,
a charismatic leader,

22:08.898 --> 22:12.348
and they attributed this
charismatic leadership--

22:12.349 --> 22:14.379
people to them.

22:14.380 --> 22:17.050
The problem comes when they
cannot deliver.

22:17.048 --> 22:20.938
Certainly Hitler,
when the Russian troops were

22:20.942 --> 22:26.132
already fighting around Berlin,
was no charismatic leader any

22:26.132 --> 22:26.742
longer.

22:26.738 --> 22:27.688
Right?

22:27.690 --> 22:31.900
He was hiding in the bunker,
considering suicide,

22:31.900 --> 22:35.700
and his charisma was gone all
together,

22:35.700 --> 22:39.780
because he did not deliver,
he did not do the miracles--

22:39.779 --> 22:44.529
right?--and therefore his
charisma was withdrawn.

22:44.529 --> 22:49.719
Now about the followers. Right?

22:49.720 --> 22:55.370
He said the followers of a
charismatic leader are often

22:55.368 --> 23:00.698
bound together by emotional
ties, and they create an

23:00.704 --> 23:04.894
emotional community with each
other.

23:04.890 --> 23:11.710
Weber uses the German term
Vergemeinschaftung;

23:11.710 --> 23:14.450
they become kind of a community.

23:14.450 --> 23:18.500
There is a real religious
leader with a charismatic

23:18.500 --> 23:19.230
appeal.

23:19.230 --> 23:23.340
It creates always communities
of people.

23:23.338 --> 23:27.588
I don't know if any one of you
ever had experiences of some

23:27.586 --> 23:30.366
fundamentalist religious
experience.

23:30.369 --> 23:32.539
I did when I was a teenager.

23:32.538 --> 23:35.948
There was a
preacher--interestingly,

23:35.953 --> 23:39.373
he also did not look
charismatic;

23:39.369 --> 23:41.469
he was even not a great speaker.

23:41.470 --> 23:45.250
I don't know how on earth he
had this curious charismatic

23:45.251 --> 23:46.631
appeal;
but he did.

23:46.630 --> 23:48.730
He did have an impact on me.

23:48.730 --> 23:51.120
I attributed charisma to him.

23:51.118 --> 23:55.658
And he kind of created a
community around himself.

23:55.657 --> 23:56.397
Right?

23:56.400 --> 24:00.150
We all were brothers and
sisters together,

24:00.152 --> 24:04.822
who kind of believed in the
charismatic preacher.

24:04.818 --> 24:09.768
This is very often in kind of
sectarian, fundamentalist

24:09.765 --> 24:12.785
religious groups,
be it Christian,

24:12.788 --> 24:16.358
or be it Muslim,
be it Evangelical.

24:16.358 --> 24:20.798
There must be people in this
room--right?--who at least when

24:20.798 --> 24:23.508
they were teenagers experienced
that.

24:23.507 --> 24:24.257
Right?

24:24.259 --> 24:28.029
When you are a teenager and you
want to get out of your family,

24:28.027 --> 24:30.577
and you are looking for a new
community;

24:30.578 --> 24:35.488
I mean, this kind of religious
community is very often offered

24:35.490 --> 24:36.860
an alternative.

24:36.858 --> 24:40.888
And some of you may still be in
such a community.

24:40.890 --> 24:43.190
And if you are, I envy you.

24:43.190 --> 24:45.630
I think it is--you know,
as I recall,

24:45.625 --> 24:48.665
it was a wonderful experience
in some ways.

24:48.670 --> 24:50.930
Vergemeinschaftung.

24:50.930 --> 24:53.080
You had your family. Right?

24:53.078 --> 24:56.658
You have your spiritual family
where you belong to.

24:56.660 --> 24:59.050
Does it make any sense what I'm
saying?

24:59.048 --> 25:02.338
I think there must be
people--right?--who experience

25:02.336 --> 25:04.456
that or are still experiencing
it.

25:04.464 --> 25:05.114
Right?

25:05.108 --> 25:09.208
So that's what he calls
Vergemeinschaftung.

25:09.210 --> 25:13.910
Gemeinschaft means
community--when the mass society

25:13.910 --> 25:18.610
relationships becomes a
relationships like a community.

25:18.608 --> 25:23.098
And indeed, even in charismatic
political campaign,

25:23.096 --> 25:28.116
you have this sense that we
belong together in the common

25:28.124 --> 25:28.664
cause.

25:28.662 --> 25:29.652
Right?

25:29.650 --> 25:32.200
There was
Vergemeinschaftung in the

25:32.202 --> 25:35.552
Civil Rights Movement--
right?--where there were these

25:35.548 --> 25:38.388
charismatic leaders,
Martin Luther King,

25:38.393 --> 25:42.933
Bobby Kennedy--right?--
and the whole idea of civil

25:42.932 --> 25:44.992
rights,
and that we're called

25:44.990 --> 25:47.890
together--right?--
and we go to the South and we

25:47.890 --> 25:50.820
demonstrate--
right?--and we demand civil

25:50.817 --> 25:53.247
rights from these bloody
racists.

25:53.247 --> 25:53.927
Right?

25:53.930 --> 25:56.920
That created a sense of
community among

25:56.921 --> 26:00.701
people--right?--who had this
belief in change.

26:00.700 --> 26:14.670
Well and if you are actually in
such a community,

26:14.670 --> 26:20.270
you have a kind of personal
devotion to the leader,

26:20.269 --> 26:26.239
and there is a certain degree
of enthusiasm what emerges in

26:26.239 --> 26:30.379
you--
right?--which is occasionally

26:30.378 --> 26:36.078
coming out of despair,
that you are desperate and then

26:36.080 --> 26:41.070
you hope to have some salvation,
some solution to an

26:41.067 --> 26:45.707
irresolvable problem by the
charismatic leader.

26:45.710 --> 26:51.230
That's how in Communism
charismatic leaders like Lenin

26:51.234 --> 26:53.844
or Mao or Castro emerged.

26:53.840 --> 26:54.780
Right?

26:54.779 --> 26:57.799
These were all societies in
deep trouble,

26:57.798 --> 27:02.258
after humiliations,
after wars, in big need for

27:02.263 --> 27:08.193
some major structural change,
and then they were looking for

27:08.193 --> 27:11.953
a savior--
right?--who will solve these

27:11.952 --> 27:17.112
irresolvable problems and will
lead out to paradise.

27:17.108 --> 27:20.268
Well it's also interesting
that, you know,

27:20.269 --> 27:24.469
in charismatic communities
there is usually relatively

27:24.472 --> 27:27.932
little hierarchy,
not all that much of a

27:27.925 --> 27:29.025
bureaucracy.

27:29.028 --> 27:36.128
Those who are actually serving
the charismatic leader usually

27:36.134 --> 27:40.164
do not get salaries or benefits.

27:40.160 --> 27:43.990
It's again true,
you know, even for charismatic

27:43.989 --> 27:47.899
political leaders,
that they get a whole army of

27:47.901 --> 27:51.201
volunteers;
because they so strongly

27:51.204 --> 27:56.604
believe in the cause that they
volunteer their time and money.

27:56.598 --> 28:05.178
Well here comes an interesting
and disturbing proposition--

28:05.180 --> 28:08.810
that he said,
"Well because charisma is

28:08.814 --> 28:13.474
such an extraordinary form,
it's--as a system of

28:13.468 --> 28:19.268
charismatic authority--
it is opposed to a rational and

28:19.273 --> 28:22.333
bureaucratic authority."

28:22.327 --> 28:23.167
Right?

28:23.170 --> 28:28.340
Therefore it is kind of
irrational, in the sense of

28:28.339 --> 28:32.579
being foreign to all established
rules.

28:32.578 --> 28:36.228
Because what is a charismatic
leader about?

28:36.230 --> 28:37.530
To change.

28:37.529 --> 28:41.989
And the change means that there
will be new rules of the game,

28:41.986 --> 28:46.586
and you don't know exactly what
these rules of the games are.

28:46.588 --> 28:51.358
And this is what makes,
if the charismatic authority as

28:51.364 --> 28:56.494
a whole system is operating,
a high level of uncertainty to

28:56.492 --> 28:57.822
the system.

28:57.818 --> 29:01.598
And now forget about American
politics.

29:01.598 --> 29:06.638
Because in the United States we
clearly have a legal-rational

29:06.638 --> 29:11.508
system--right?--that's what
characterizes the United States

29:11.509 --> 29:12.769
of America.

29:12.769 --> 29:18.509
And occasionally we see
emerging politicians who

29:18.506 --> 29:24.116
actually do implement some level
of change--

29:24.118 --> 29:27.098
or promise change,
whether they can deliver or

29:27.096 --> 29:29.826
not--
will greatly affect how long we

29:29.826 --> 29:32.236
attach charisma to these people.

29:32.240 --> 29:39.140
But from Roosevelt to JFK to
Martin Luther King to Obama,

29:39.143 --> 29:45.803
there were politicians with
this charismatic appeal.

29:45.798 --> 29:48.268
But the system itself was not
charismatic.

29:48.268 --> 29:48.748
Right?

29:48.750 --> 29:54.880
Charisma helped leaders to get
elected, and charisma actually

29:54.880 --> 30:01.110
may help a leader to be able to
make some strong and important

30:01.113 --> 30:03.773
changes early in life.

30:03.769 --> 30:07.999
Those who are critical of
President Obama usually are

30:08.002 --> 30:11.592
critical of him,
that he has not moving fast and

30:11.592 --> 30:14.832
forcefully enough--
was not cashing in,

30:14.832 --> 30:19.602
in his charisma early--
right?--in his presidency.

30:19.598 --> 30:23.668
And there is,
you know, some signs that in

30:23.670 --> 30:26.450
fact, you know,
his charisma,

30:26.450 --> 30:29.530
charismatic appeal is
weakening.

30:29.528 --> 30:30.718
Right?

30:30.720 --> 30:34.340
There are some people who say,
"Well I feel betrayed.

30:34.339 --> 30:35.249
You know?

30:35.250 --> 30:40.090
I was promised change,
and I see a lot of politics as

30:40.093 --> 30:42.053
usual." Right?

30:42.048 --> 30:46.998
So this is, of course,
an inevitable problem,

30:47.000 --> 30:52.300
if a leader who has this
charismatic appeal finds itself

30:52.298 --> 30:55.668
in the legal-rational
authority--

30:55.670 --> 30:59.090
right?--where actually it's
very difficult to implement a

30:59.089 --> 30:59.639
change.

30:59.640 --> 31:03.700
You want to change the rules,
the laws, you have to go

31:03.702 --> 31:05.852
through Congress to do that.

31:05.848 --> 31:06.538
Right?

31:06.538 --> 31:10.838
You just cannot declare that
from now onwards there is a new

31:10.836 --> 31:12.726
game, rules of the game.

31:12.730 --> 31:17.400
And that is--sounds very much
like politics as usual.

31:17.400 --> 31:22.740
That's very different from what
Lenin or Mao Zedong did.

31:22.741 --> 31:23.521
Right?

31:23.519 --> 31:26.629
Lenin and Mao Zedong were not
guided by rules.

31:26.630 --> 31:28.830
They established the rules.

31:28.828 --> 31:32.648
I mean, Mao Zedong is a
particularly interesting

31:32.645 --> 31:33.455
character.

31:33.459 --> 31:34.189
Right?

31:34.190 --> 31:38.300
He established first a
bureaucratic rule in China,

31:38.295 --> 31:41.975
and then he launches the
Cultural Revolution.

31:41.981 --> 31:42.821
Right?

31:42.818 --> 31:45.718
He launches an
anti-bureaucratic movement,

31:45.720 --> 31:49.080
and the top leader of the
bureaucracy is becoming the

31:49.075 --> 31:52.685
major popular leader of an
anti-bureaucratic movement.

31:52.690 --> 31:56.920
I mean, this guy was really
quite something,

31:56.923 --> 31:59.093
quite extraordinary.

31:59.088 --> 32:01.988
And in a way he did that,
you know, because his charisma

32:01.990 --> 32:03.520
was weakening by the 1960s.

32:03.519 --> 32:06.659
First he promised "a great
leap forward";

32:06.660 --> 32:09.820
you know, in no time we will
catch up and we will look like

32:09.819 --> 32:10.909
the United States.

32:10.910 --> 32:13.880
And what happened with the
great leap forward?

32:13.880 --> 32:17.450
Disaster;
people were starving to death.

32:17.450 --> 32:20.460
So he was not delivering the
miracle.

32:20.460 --> 32:23.080
So what does he does next?

32:23.078 --> 32:29.408
He shows as his--we'll change
the rules of the game.

32:29.410 --> 32:33.440
He launches the Cultural
Revolution, and he suddenly

32:33.438 --> 32:38.728
becomes the leader of people who
actually should be opposing him.

32:38.730 --> 32:43.030
You know, he's generating these
kind of miracles;

32:43.029 --> 32:47.279
you know, the last miracle what
he's trying to generate at old

32:47.282 --> 32:50.772
age, that he goes swimming in
the Yangtze River.

32:50.769 --> 32:51.669
You see?

32:51.670 --> 32:53.370
You think I'm old and I'm dying?

32:53.368 --> 32:57.838
No, I'm superhuman,
I still can swim.

32:57.836 --> 32:58.826
Right?

32:58.828 --> 33:04.388
This is the kind of--trying to
rescue--right?--your charismatic

33:04.393 --> 33:09.243
appeal, where it is about to be
taken away from you.

33:09.240 --> 33:13.020
But on the whole,
as we see, as they establish,

33:13.020 --> 33:17.300
these charismatic leaders,
establish this charismatic

33:17.296 --> 33:20.416
system, they can change the
rules.

33:20.420 --> 33:23.050
And, you know,
if you look at Chinese history,

33:23.047 --> 33:26.027
every five years everything is
completely different.

33:26.026 --> 33:26.606
Right?

33:26.608 --> 33:30.068
First a hundred flowers
flourish.

33:30.068 --> 33:32.928
We will let--everybody
will--then, you know,

33:32.932 --> 33:35.142
great leap forward;
then, you know,

33:35.142 --> 33:36.282
Cultural Revolution.

33:36.279 --> 33:38.549
He's changing the rules all the
time.

33:38.548 --> 33:40.678
This is an unpredictable
environment.

33:40.680 --> 33:45.640
Can the economy work in this
unpredictable environment?

33:45.640 --> 33:47.200
No, it cannot.

33:47.200 --> 33:50.940
The same goes for the Nazis,
and the same goes for the

33:50.939 --> 33:51.709
Stalinists.

33:51.714 --> 33:52.354
Right?

33:52.348 --> 33:53.758
It was an unpredictable
environment.

33:53.759 --> 33:55.809
It was not good for business.

33:55.808 --> 33:59.448
Business needs a predictable
environment.

33:59.451 --> 34:00.181
Right?

34:00.180 --> 34:03.140
It needs the rule of law.

34:03.140 --> 34:08.220
That's why capitalism--business
at least---likes legal-rational

34:08.217 --> 34:09.197
authority.

34:09.199 --> 34:13.949
They don't necessarily like
democratic system.

34:13.945 --> 34:14.785
Right?

34:14.789 --> 34:19.779
Capitalism can live nicely with
authoritarian figures.

34:19.780 --> 34:23.460
Capitalists loved Pinochet.

34:23.456 --> 34:24.406
Right?

34:24.409 --> 34:26.739
But, you know,
Pinochet was,

34:26.739 --> 34:30.879
you know, reasonable
legal-rational authority;

34:30.880 --> 34:33.290
I mean, at the beginning,
you know, he was killing people

34:33.289 --> 34:33.849
like crazy.

34:33.849 --> 34:37.519
But then he established a
reasonably predictable system

34:37.518 --> 34:40.358
and capitalists loved it,
and for awhile,

34:40.358 --> 34:44.448
you know, the Chilean economy,
partially advised by Milton

34:44.447 --> 34:47.257
Friedman,
you know, boosted.

34:47.260 --> 34:50.900
So, I mean, what capitalism
really wants is a predictable

34:50.900 --> 34:51.810
environment.

34:51.809 --> 34:54.769
And in many ways,
you know, democracy is not all

34:54.771 --> 34:57.481
that good for a predictable
environment,

34:57.480 --> 35:01.210
because every fourth year we go
to the polls and then we elect

35:01.210 --> 35:03.510
other people,
and then they come up with

35:03.509 --> 35:06.159
other ideas,
and this is a bit of a mess.

35:06.159 --> 35:12.739
So really I would almost say
that a good free market economy

35:12.737 --> 35:17.097
loves rule of law,
with a kind of authoritarian

35:17.096 --> 35:20.476
leader and a longstanding
political stability.

35:20.480 --> 35:23.650
They don't like these big
changes--right?--in the

35:23.646 --> 35:24.896
political system.

35:24.900 --> 35:31.230
Well now and charisma as a
revolutionary force.

35:31.230 --> 35:32.650
This is very important.

35:32.650 --> 35:36.880
I think Weber first of all
makes a very specific argument.

35:36.880 --> 35:40.080
He said it is always in
traditionalistic

35:40.076 --> 35:44.906
periods--right?--traditional
authority, when charisma is the

35:44.911 --> 35:47.371
great revolutionary force.

35:47.369 --> 35:50.219
So, in fact,
in a modern legal-rational

35:50.224 --> 35:54.284
authority, it is not so much
charisma which carries the

35:54.282 --> 35:55.712
change through.

35:55.710 --> 36:00.560
It is technical innovation,
and it is the kind of routine

36:00.556 --> 36:05.746
and boring elections every four
years which brings changes by

36:05.750 --> 36:08.520
gradually and incrementally.

36:08.518 --> 36:12.408
The big change is occurring
from one type of traditional

36:12.414 --> 36:15.394
authority to another type of
authority,

36:15.389 --> 36:18.709
and in order to change the
value system of one type of

36:18.708 --> 36:21.338
tradition to another type of
tradition,

36:21.340 --> 36:24.000
that's when you need
charismatic leaders.

36:24.000 --> 36:26.720
So he
said--right?--bureaucratic

36:26.724 --> 36:31.214
rationalization is the major
revolutionary force.

36:31.210 --> 36:34.900
But, you know,
in a bureaucratic system like

36:34.900 --> 36:38.590
what we have,
it is really a revolution from

36:38.590 --> 36:39.620
without.

36:39.619 --> 36:42.329
It is coming from technological
change.

36:42.329 --> 36:44.279
We have revolution.

36:44.280 --> 36:45.430
Oh yes.

36:45.429 --> 36:51.519
I mean, the first time when I
heard there is stuff like

36:51.516 --> 36:55.006
internet--email--it was 1976.

36:55.010 --> 37:01.290
And now I'm an email addict,
as many of you know.

37:01.289 --> 37:03.639
You send me an email,
and occasionally in five

37:03.635 --> 37:06.815
minutes you get an answer from
me, because I'm always checking

37:06.818 --> 37:08.068
my email like crazy.

37:08.070 --> 37:09.450
This was all new.

37:09.449 --> 37:11.009
This was coming from the
outside.

37:11.010 --> 37:14.930
Now, charisma,
on the other hand--this is very

37:14.929 --> 37:20.069
insightful, very important--it
is revolution from within.

37:20.070 --> 37:24.780
What charisma is doing is
changing the value systems in

37:24.775 --> 37:25.125
you.

37:25.125 --> 37:25.905
Right?

37:25.909 --> 37:30.149
That's what charismatic leaders
do achieve, to persuade you that

37:30.150 --> 37:33.650
you have to have a different
kind of value system.

37:33.650 --> 37:37.430
And that's why I think
charismatic leadership does play

37:37.429 --> 37:40.509
a role, not only in traditional
societies.

37:40.510 --> 37:46.340
But charismatic leaders,
in a legal-rational authority,

37:46.335 --> 37:51.615
do play a role to change
people's value systems in

37:51.623 --> 37:53.893
substantial ways.

37:53.889 --> 37:57.579
Again we discussed that in
discussion sections.

37:57.579 --> 38:01.189
Those who are not in my
discussion sections--just let me

38:01.190 --> 38:03.290
invoke the Civil Rights
Movement.

38:03.293 --> 38:03.953
Right?

38:03.949 --> 38:07.129
The Civil Rights Movement in
ten years,

38:07.130 --> 38:10.050
in the United States,
produced a change in value

38:10.047 --> 38:12.367
systems--
our attitudes to race

38:12.371 --> 38:15.581
relationships and gender
relationships--

38:15.579 --> 38:19.549
which otherwise would have
taken a hundred years.

38:19.547 --> 38:20.207
Right?

38:20.210 --> 38:25.140
It happened in ten short years,
that we completely rethought

38:25.141 --> 38:28.901
race and gender relationships in
this country.

38:28.903 --> 38:29.743
Right?

38:29.739 --> 38:34.699
And this to a large extent
demanded--right?--charismatic

38:34.697 --> 38:35.597
leaders.

38:35.599 --> 38:40.489
It demanded--right?--Martin
Luther King--right?--who had a

38:40.492 --> 38:45.642
dream--right?--about a society
where there can be a different

38:45.643 --> 38:47.793
type of value system.

38:47.789 --> 38:51.199
And in no time--I mean,
you were too young to

38:51.197 --> 38:53.717
experience that,
but your parents and

38:53.722 --> 38:56.352
grandparents experienced it,
and talk to them,

38:56.346 --> 39:00.066
they will tell you--
right?--how fundamentally their

39:00.065 --> 39:04.445
world outlook and looking at a
person of another race,

39:04.449 --> 39:09.989
or how they began to treat
women in their family,

39:09.989 --> 39:13.389
or girls in their family,
how radically it changed,

39:13.389 --> 39:15.789
almost instantly. Right?

39:15.789 --> 39:18.449
Because it was a change from
within.

39:18.451 --> 39:19.061
Right?

39:19.059 --> 39:22.879
That's what charismatic
revolution is all about.

39:22.880 --> 39:30.640
And well this is,
of course has everything to do

39:30.644 --> 39:33.624
against routine.

39:33.619 --> 39:37.929
Charismatic is not doing
things as they used to be.

39:37.929 --> 39:41.339
That's why it is the
opposite--right?--of one type of

39:41.340 --> 39:44.360
traditionalism,
and the problem is what happens

39:44.358 --> 39:47.638
if the charismatic leader
disappears and dies?

39:47.639 --> 39:51.919
And that's when we have the
problem how can the charismatic

39:51.920 --> 39:53.470
leader be replaced?

39:53.469 --> 39:58.369
It's a very big issue,
and there are different methods

39:58.369 --> 39:59.849
of succession.

39:59.849 --> 40:02.919
And let me just walk you
through of this.

40:02.920 --> 40:05.530
It's not quite uninteresting.

40:05.530 --> 40:07.320
It can be search.

40:07.320 --> 40:09.770
It can be by revelation.

40:09.768 --> 40:14.138
It can be designation by the
original leader.

40:14.139 --> 40:18.749
It can be designation by a
staff, which is particularly

40:18.753 --> 40:24.053
qualified to decide who the next
charismatic leader will be.

40:24.050 --> 40:28.830
The issue is how can you
maintain a charismatic system

40:28.827 --> 40:29.817
going on?

40:29.820 --> 40:33.700
It can be hereditary,
that some hereditary line is

40:33.701 --> 40:34.811
established.

40:34.809 --> 40:39.799
And it can be office charisma;
the office itself can carry

40:39.795 --> 40:40.585
charisma.

40:40.590 --> 40:43.980
Now let me just briefly talk to
each one of these.

40:43.980 --> 40:45.490
Search.

40:45.489 --> 40:53.329
Well the best example is how
you find a Dalai Lama.

40:53.326 --> 40:54.576
Right?

40:54.579 --> 40:56.509
It happens through a search.

40:56.510 --> 40:59.020
The Dalai Lama dies.

40:59.018 --> 41:04.168
You know that the Dalai Lama is
reincarnated.

41:04.170 --> 41:08.620
So you send out people and
looking for a child who is the

41:08.617 --> 41:11.317
reincarnation of the Dalai Lama.

41:11.320 --> 41:15.650
There must be just one child
who is the reincarnation of the

41:15.646 --> 41:16.596
Dalai Lama.

41:16.599 --> 41:19.779
And then you have experts,
who can tell,

41:19.782 --> 41:23.212
go around and then they find
this child.

41:23.210 --> 41:28.020
This is the new Dalai Lama,
and then it will be brought up,

41:28.016 --> 41:31.746
and will become the Dalai Lama
and, of course,

41:31.746 --> 41:34.976
will have a great deal of
charisma.

41:34.980 --> 41:37.960
And you can see it works.

41:37.960 --> 41:42.540
The Dalai Lama does have a lot
of charisma.

41:42.538 --> 41:43.408
Right?

41:43.409 --> 41:46.909
Well whether you believe in
reincarnation or not,

41:46.905 --> 41:48.575
that's another story.

41:48.579 --> 41:54.319
Probably most people in this
room do not believe in it,

41:54.320 --> 41:59.570
but if you do not believe in
it, even more miraculous why the

41:59.574 --> 42:04.044
Dalai Lama has this quite
extraordinary charisma.

42:04.039 --> 42:08.629
There are people who just get
wild if they can get near to the

42:08.630 --> 42:09.610
Dalai Lama.

42:09.610 --> 42:15.150
I had a student in Taiwan who
actually turned into a Buddhist

42:15.153 --> 42:19.593
and became a great follower of
the Dalai Lama.

42:19.590 --> 42:20.700
He got a Ph.D.

42:20.699 --> 42:26.779
from UCLA, but he's following;
wherever the Dalai Lama goes,

42:26.780 --> 42:28.020
he's always there.

42:28.019 --> 42:30.399
Because he has this charisma.

42:30.400 --> 42:33.870
His charisma is attributed to
him.

42:33.869 --> 42:34.709
Right?

42:34.710 --> 42:39.080
He was found in the right way,
and he was established as a

42:39.079 --> 42:40.689
charismatic leader.

42:40.690 --> 42:44.170
It can happen through
revelation.

42:44.170 --> 42:49.970
Revelation actually means that
there are some people who are

42:49.972 --> 42:55.882
believed to have some kind of
access to some divine authority

42:55.875 --> 43:00.985
who can declare that this is a
person who is the next

43:00.989 --> 43:03.449
charismatic leader.

43:03.449 --> 43:07.919
Well I don't think in
contemporary world revelation is

43:07.920 --> 43:09.270
all that much.

43:09.268 --> 43:11.808
Though, I mean,
newspapers do it for you.

43:11.811 --> 43:12.321
Right?

43:12.320 --> 43:16.970
The newspapers do create
charismatic leaders for you.

43:16.969 --> 43:22.239
They attach charisma,
they build up the charismatic

43:22.244 --> 43:26.744
powers of a person;
the media does it for you.

43:26.739 --> 43:31.249
And certainly the charisma
attributed to rock

43:31.253 --> 43:35.563
stars--right?--rock stars do
have charisma,

43:35.563 --> 43:39.773
right?--is created through the
media.

43:39.769 --> 43:41.919
The media has the oracle. Right?

43:41.920 --> 43:46.390
He knows who the great guys are
and whom you have to get

43:46.393 --> 43:50.383
absolutely excited when you get
to the concert.

43:50.380 --> 43:53.900
Well, there can be a
designation by the original

43:53.896 --> 43:54.566
leader.

43:54.570 --> 43:59.620
If the charismatic leader is
dying, then the charismatic

43:59.621 --> 44:03.571
leader has a problem to find a
successor.

44:03.570 --> 44:08.200
That's very difficult to do,
because charismatic leaders are

44:08.201 --> 44:12.441
bloody scared that if they
designate a leader then they

44:12.438 --> 44:15.028
will be poisoned or murdered.

44:15.030 --> 44:18.640
Or the new leader wants to take
it over--too often,

44:18.641 --> 44:23.051
very often, we see charismatic
leaders designating leaders and

44:23.045 --> 44:24.775
then murdering them.

44:24.780 --> 44:28.480
That's a long history in
humankind.

44:28.480 --> 44:32.870
But, you know,
an interesting example was that

44:32.869 --> 44:38.719
Stalin tried to build up his
charisma by faking a testimonial

44:38.722 --> 44:44.012
of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin,
in which assumedly Lenin said

44:44.014 --> 44:46.874
that Stalin will be the
successor.

44:46.869 --> 44:48.749
This was all a lie.

44:48.750 --> 44:53.580
Lenin actually disliked Stalin
a great deal and was very

44:53.579 --> 44:56.389
reluctant to name a successor.

44:56.389 --> 44:58.849
But he forged this letter and
tried to say,

44:58.851 --> 45:01.431
"Well I inherited the
charisma."

45:01.429 --> 45:04.719
And he had a lot of problems
actually to establish his

45:04.724 --> 45:05.414
charisma.

45:05.409 --> 45:09.159
Eventually, in fact during the
Second World War,

45:09.157 --> 45:12.657
he managed to emerge as a
charismatic leader,

45:12.664 --> 45:17.294
and not only in the Soviet
Union but even in the West.

45:17.289 --> 45:19.569
There's a lot of people in the
United States,

45:19.570 --> 45:23.700
as the Soviet Army defeated the
Germans,

45:23.699 --> 45:28.439
first in Moscow and then of
course in Stalingrad,

45:28.440 --> 45:31.700
that they began to see Stalin
as a great leader--

45:31.699 --> 45:34.279
right?--as a charismatic great
leader.

45:34.280 --> 45:37.590
But he probably had nothing to
do with the success of the Red

45:37.592 --> 45:37.982
Army.

45:37.980 --> 45:42.720
Well, or it can be designated
by a qualified staff.

45:42.719 --> 45:46.049
This is the way how,
for instance,

45:46.050 --> 45:50.600
the Pope is being selected;
and the pope does

45:50.601 --> 45:54.321
have--right?--a charismatic
authority.

45:54.320 --> 45:58.390
If you are Roman Catholic,
you know that the Pope has some

45:58.393 --> 46:01.113
access to God,
what you, ordinary Roman

46:01.110 --> 46:03.040
Catholics, do not have.

46:03.039 --> 46:06.899
And how is--but it's going on
from one Pope to the next.

46:06.900 --> 46:10.210
The character of the Pope will
matter.

46:10.213 --> 46:10.933
Right?

46:10.929 --> 46:14.009
There are some more,
you know, charming,

46:14.009 --> 46:17.319
more persuasive popes,
whom you see more of

46:17.324 --> 46:19.224
charismatic leaders.

46:19.219 --> 46:22.309
There are other popes who are
more like bureaucrats.

46:22.309 --> 46:26.009
But nevertheless,
even the bureaucratic kind of

46:26.007 --> 46:29.867
popes, are assumed to be
charismatic and they are

46:29.865 --> 46:32.675
selected by a designated staff.

46:32.679 --> 46:35.089
There is a certain set of
archbishops;

46:35.090 --> 46:38.800
when one pope dies,
they gather together in Rome,

46:38.800 --> 46:42.110
and they cannot leave,
you know, the room until they

46:42.106 --> 46:44.586
agree,
they achieve a consensus,

46:44.590 --> 46:48.320
who is the other person who
will have this special

46:48.318 --> 46:49.838
relationship to God.

46:49.838 --> 46:50.598
Right?

46:50.599 --> 46:55.639
There is also hereditary
charisma, that you try to pass

46:55.635 --> 47:00.575
charisma on through your
children--very hard to do.

47:00.579 --> 47:03.339
North Korea is trying to do
that.

47:03.340 --> 47:04.030
Right?

47:04.030 --> 47:09.550
Kim Il-sung passed his charisma
on to Kim Jong-il,

47:09.552 --> 47:14.062
which is an absolutely
ridiculous guy.

47:14.059 --> 47:17.319
But nevertheless,
you know, somehow it looks

47:17.317 --> 47:20.797
like, you know,
that in Korea he does have some

47:20.800 --> 47:23.150
kind of charismatic appeal.

47:23.150 --> 47:26.730
So, I mean, this is not totally
impossible.

47:26.730 --> 47:29.470
I mean, it's a bad idea,
you know, if you are a

47:29.469 --> 47:32.449
charismatic leader to pass
charisma on this way.

47:32.449 --> 47:35.639
Finally office charisma--this
is very important.

47:35.639 --> 47:39.779
Incumbents of an office is
supposed to have some charisma,

47:39.780 --> 47:41.670
depending on the office.

47:41.670 --> 47:45.660
But the office of the Pope,
of course, is supposed to have

47:45.659 --> 47:46.429
charisma.

47:46.429 --> 47:50.249
But we actually do use this
very often.

47:50.250 --> 47:55.230
We do--well in the United
States we call this leadership.

47:55.228 --> 47:55.938
Right?

47:55.940 --> 48:00.380
That we expect people in
position of certain authorities

48:00.378 --> 48:04.008
to offer leadership--to have
vision, right?

48:04.010 --> 48:08.280
And this is a kind of a
charisma which goes with the

48:08.284 --> 48:09.044
office.

48:09.039 --> 48:12.189
And, you know,
I have been department chair

48:12.193 --> 48:15.803
quite a few times,
and it's so interesting moving

48:15.802 --> 48:19.872
into the position of department
chair and moving out of it.

48:19.869 --> 48:24.279
Your relationship to your
colleagues changes a great deal.

48:24.280 --> 48:27.230
You know, when you are the
department chair,

48:27.233 --> 48:31.013
there is-- certainly some
charisma is attributed to you.

48:31.012 --> 48:31.702
Right?

48:31.699 --> 48:35.379
You are supposed to offer some
kind of leadership,

48:35.376 --> 48:39.726
and you are believed to be able
to bring in some change.

48:39.730 --> 48:42.050
I just remember,
you know, one of the

48:42.054 --> 48:45.484
institutions when I was an
incoming outside chair,

48:45.480 --> 48:49.020
how people said,
"Oh, you came in like

48:49.021 --> 48:50.541
fresh air."

48:50.539 --> 48:52.629
Well in two years' time it was
all gone.

48:52.630 --> 48:54.110
I was not fresh air.

48:54.110 --> 48:55.600
I was routine.

48:55.599 --> 48:58.969
You know, I was operating in a
bureaucracy, massaging the

48:58.965 --> 49:00.945
bureaucracy to get things done.

49:00.949 --> 49:02.989
My charisma was all gone.

49:02.989 --> 49:05.759
But there is,
right?--I think it's a very

49:05.755 --> 49:09.075
American thing,
right?--that you attach

49:09.083 --> 49:12.983
expectations to incumbents of
the office,

49:12.980 --> 49:15.710
that it can actually carry out
change,

49:15.710 --> 49:19.870
bring in fresh air--right?--to
have a vision and to do things

49:19.871 --> 49:22.161
better than it was done before.

49:22.159 --> 49:24.119
Okay, that's about charisma.

49:24.119 --> 49:25.429
Thank you.

49:25.429 --> 49:29.999