WEBVTT

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Prof: We're going to
look at XXVII,

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XXVIII and XXIX today of
Paradise,

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three cantos that,
really, I think,

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Dante constructs together and
where Dante puts forth this

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theory of creation and cosmology
which are not quite the same

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thing.

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A theory of Beatrice that's
explaining the shape of the

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cosmos, it's very difficult in
these three cantos.

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It's done in such a way that
they are two different things,

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it would seem,
creation and a physical

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description of the cosmos which
we call cosmology and they are

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because Dante's dealing with two
forms of the universe,

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a spiritual one and a physical
one.

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Now we're going to show all of
this as we go over the three

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cantos.

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I would like to argue that in
effect they are not quite the

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same thing but not really all
that distinct.

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There is a very tedious line
separating the two of them.

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Where are we first of all in
space?

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We are somewhere in space,
Dante has gone past now,

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the heaven of the fixed stars,
with the examination of the

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three words,
the three terms,

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the foundations of things that
we experience as trust,

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or we experience as existential
hope,

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or a love that if you combine
it is always--

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implies always--not in Canto
XXVI but in possibilities of

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betrayal,
uncertainty,

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so it combines both faith and
hope in a very problematical

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way.

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Canto XXVII Dante continues
with--in the afterglow of the

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fixed stars,
and the canto just to give you

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an idea about what formally is
happening here,

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the first part of the canto
really looks back formerly at

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Canto XXVII of Inferno.

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There is clearly a parallel
between the two cantos.

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Here Dante--you remember what
he does, he meets St.

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Peter actually who has been
examining him but now after the

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examination of the three
theological virtues he goes on

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in a prophetic denunciation,
he denounces the collusion

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between his place,
he says "my place,"

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it's the papacy,
the place instituted

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by--because of him he's the
Peter,

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he's the stone,
and his successors.

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That's the way it says,
so the canto literally looks

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backwards and a parallel with--
you may have a number of

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parallels with Inferno
XIX where Dante meets,

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you remember,
the popes who are turned upside

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down and the flames--
the kind of--the parody of the

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Pentecostal fires out on the
plants of their feet,

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but this is more clearly a
reference to Canto XXVII of

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Inferno,
where this is the very

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beginning, this is--
there is a hymn Canto XXVII,

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"Glory be to the Father,
the Son, etc.,"

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and then lines 40 and following
we have this great attack,

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"It was not our
meaning,"

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line 45,
"that on the right hand of

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our successors should sit one
part of Christ's people and the

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other on the left;
nor that the keys which were

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committed to me should become
the device on a standard for

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warfare on the baptized;
nor that I should be the figure

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on a seal for sold and lying
favours, for which I often

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redden and flash with
fire."

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This is the fire of prophecy
without a doubt,

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but it's also,
retrospectively,

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a reference to the attack
against Boniface,

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who in Canto XXVII of
Inferno,

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is shown as he is in colluding
with the Guido da Montefeltro.

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You remember,
so there is a clear--it's a

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clear symmetry between the two
cantos.

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I will hasten to add that Canto
XXVII is also--

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has a kind of chiastic
structure because at one point,

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just to give you this is a
formal description of what's

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happening here,
a little later after this

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outburst by Peter,

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Beatrice and the pilgrim move
onto the next heaven,

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which is around line 75 and
following.

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The next heaven is the
so-called crystalline heaven

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which is still material.

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He's at the boundary of the
material universe.

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It's still material but it's
very, exactly crystal-like;

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it's a very thin materiality,
almost but not quite spiritual.

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It's also called the primum
mobile because it's here;

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this is the technical term that
they give.

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It's here, in this heaven,
that we have problems of

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origins, the origin of time,
the origin of space.

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Dante goes on giving
this--Beatrice goes on giving

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this cosmological description of
the universe in material terms.

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Here, to continue with the
formal,

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the issue of form now,
at one point Beatrice says,

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"wait look behind you so
that you can have an idea,

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you can measure the enormous
distance you have traveled from

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the Earth."

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He's at the boundary of the
material cosmos.

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You might say,
well he's at the edge of the

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cosmos; he's going to fall off.

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That was always one of the
objections about the idea of the

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finiteness of the cosmos.

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Believe it or not in the
seventeenth century they would

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never really fall off because
the universe is a sphere,

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so the only place he has to go
to is back,

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there's no literally edge,
every point is the edge and

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every point is in a continuous
spherical curve.

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Anyway, from the point of view,
he's arriving there so she

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says,
look back and what does he see,

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and this is the line,
"From the time when I

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had," this is XXVII,
line 75, "From the time

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when I had looked before I saw
that I had moved through the

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whole arc,"
that's the language of this

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sphere,
an arc, circle,

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an arc just gives you an idea
of sphericity,

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"from the middle to the
end of the first clime,

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so that I saw on the one hand,
beyond Cadiz,

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the mad track of Ulysses."

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He pinpoints that little place
where Ulysses trespassed the

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boundaries of the world--
of the Euclidian space he

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had--for which he has been
damned in Canto XXVI of

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Inferno.

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This is what we call a
chiasmus, in other words XXVI

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and XXVII--we do see that XXVI
that are an allusion to Ulysses

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and Adam.

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We talked about these figures
and here in XXVII of

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Hell,
there is Boniface and then in

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Paradise XXVII there is
this,

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and there is also a kind
of--this is Ulysses so there's a

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sort of chiastic structure;
XXVII of Paradise refers

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to really VI of Paradise
and refers also to XXVII of

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Inferno and XXVI of
Inferno.

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The question is,
why does Dante pinpoint once

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again Ulysses?

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He sees at the west the point
which Ulysses had trespassed and

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he calls it the mad track,
"the mad track of

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Ulysses."

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Clearly, Ulysses is still part
of this fascination that--it

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exerts an incredible fascination
on the imagination of the poet

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and the pilgrim.

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Am I like Ulysses or am I going
to be lost now like Ulysses,

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but at the same time,
it's a way of hinting at how

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much he has exceeded Ulysses'
adventure.

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Ulysses only went past the
Pillars of Hercules;

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he, Dante, is now at the outer
most boundary of the visible

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physical universe,
so there's a way in which there

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is a little bit of detachment
and yet a constant fascination.

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We tried to explain why he is
so fascinated with Ulysses.

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At the other end he also sees,
"and on the other nearly

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to the shore where Europa made
herself a sweet burden,"

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this is really the eastern part
of the known world,

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Europe, the rape of Europe by
Jupiter so that we really have

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an erotic transgression and an
intellectual transgression,

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as if the two are now once
again are involved in this--

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in Dante's vision as if he's
now coming to the point where

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knowledge and desire really have
to coincide.

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He's coming to the point where
the beautiful and the good are

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one,
at the point where all of the

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great countries and distinctions
that we have been pursuing all

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along nearly have to go on
converging.

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Let me continue with this idea.

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This is--before I go on with
what happens in the canto.

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Dante then moves into the
primum mobile,

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which is the place where I
continue with this.

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He goes on line 100,
they go into "the swiftest

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part of heaven,"
that's the primum

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mobile.

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All motion begins from here.

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Dante is moving from what would
seem to be an ethical--the

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ethical scene,
the denunciation,

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Peter's denunciation of the
abuses within the Church.

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That's done in a prophetic tone
but also from a tone of ethical,

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the ethical language.

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He goes into the so-called
primum mobile which

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actually is the heaven of
metaphysics.

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I have been telling you about
the grammar,

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rhetoric, music,
geometry, this is what we call

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the heaven of metaphysics and
you know what that is,

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right?

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You understand what metaphysics
means?

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Dante refers to it as they did
refer to it, Aristotle refers to

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as the first philosophy.

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They called it first because it
reigns--it rules supreme among

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all the arts and all the
sciences.

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It's the most important of the
sciences.

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It's the point of arrival of
all the sciences and it's called

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first philosophy because it
explains also questions of

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origins,
and you see the language of

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origins here,
the origin of time,

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the origin of space,
creation itself,

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the beginning of the world,
causes, foundations,

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these are the--
this is the great Rome that

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metaphysics discusses.

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Dante, the interesting thing is
that in the Middle Ages,

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and Dante has to connect it
with physics.

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Physics is as--metaphysics
really go hand in hand,

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one tries to give the
explanation of the physical

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world,
and metaphysics the

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theoretical, general rules.

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In fact, and this you
probably--I should mention this.

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There are people who believe
that metaphysics was not a term

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that really indicated anything
really different,

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completely different from the
knowledge that physics provides.

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They would say that
was--metaphysics was called

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metaphysics because it--the book
was placed on the shelf a little

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bit after the book on physics.

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You see what I mean?

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It was really more a way of
defining the place of the book

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on the library so to speak,
probably, but it was known as

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that,
but it's probably more of a

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fiction than anything else.

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The fact is that there is such
a science for Dante that deals

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with causes, origins,
beginnings, time,

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etc.

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One of the things that here we
have it's that Dante--

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that Beatrice starts describing
line 100,

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"'The nature of the
universe,"

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here she placed the
cosmologies,

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"which holds the center
still and moves all else around

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it,
begins here,'"

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so this is already the
beginning,

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literally the language of
beginnings.

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Here begins motion.

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Dante stands at the boundary of
the physical universe and now

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she gives and explanation of
this.

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She just said he's at the
boundary,

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"And this heaven has no
other where,"

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place,
"but the Divine Mind."

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The real beginning,
the real universe is in God's

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mind,
so he distinguishes two worlds,

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the physical world we see and
the spiritual world,

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which is in God's mind.

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In a way, and just to make it
very simple, Dante is journeying

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into the mind of God.

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There is one man who had
written a text,

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Bonaventure,
whom you have seen--whom you

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have met before and he wrote
this book called The

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Itinerary of The Mind into
God.

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This is a way of trying to
explore, to enter,

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mystically enter,
the mind of God.

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Dante doesn't do it in a
mystical way.

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He tries to understand what's
beyond the physical world.

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To give a description of this
universe this is the term that

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keeps reappearing in the next
three cantos.

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"Light and love enclose it
in a circle,

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as it does the others,
and of the girding He that

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girds it is the soul
Intelligence."

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This primum mobile,
it really is a kind of curve

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that wraps up all the other
heavens.

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We have seen--this is the ninth
heaven, all the other heavens

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have been--are enwrapped within
it, but it's not only a

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boundary;
Dante views it as also the

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beginning, the threshold for the
spiritual universe.

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It's both the boundary of the
physical world and it's always

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also the--
so it goes like this,

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this is the Earth,
and growing,

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and then we come to the ninth
this becomes at the same time a

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kind of convex and concave semi
circle.

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I have, believe it or not,
a shape of what I think is

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Dante's cosmos and here it is.

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This is--I'm going to pass it
around.

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This is a shell but it's
actually really made and found.

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This would be the--pass it
around here and then I'll

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explain--
they're all spirals really like

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the--
since Dante thinks of the

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cosmos as a book and we would
call it a cosmobook,

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that's a neology that I coin
here, a kind of cosmobook.

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The book in the shape of a
cosmos, it's really a parchment

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rolled up within itself.

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You know what parchments are in
medieval and classical ideas of

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the production,
the material production of

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books?

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We have the ancient parchments
which are all rolled up

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like--the term is around a stick
and then held together by a

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ring, that's really the shape.

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It's a sort of a production of
books that in the history of the

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book is later replaced around
the fourth century A.D.

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by the so called codex which we
have for instance even in the

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Beinecke.

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A codex has--it's made of
quartos, it's made of folios and

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divided like a book today made
of--it would have quartos or

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folios.

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If you go and see the
Shakespeare's--

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the folios of Shakespeare in
the Elizabethan Club,

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for instance,
if they let you go in or you

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belong there,
take a look and see what the

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codex really is.

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Dante seems to be combining the
two forms.

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Anyway, you have an idea here
of what the shape that I'm

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trying to describe to you is.

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They are a kind of,
if you wish,

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they are spirals,
one following the other,

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and next to it there is going
to be a spiritual universe,

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another universe which we'll
come to in a moment.

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This is the first description
that she's giving.

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The idea of the sphericity of
space,

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that's one thing,
the space is spherical and has

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as the primum mobile as a
boundary and now we have--

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Beatrice goes on explaining,
"Its motion is not

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determined by another's,"
this is line 112,

18:13.740 --> 18:16.160
"but from it the rest have
their measures."

18:16.160 --> 18:18.550
Everything begins here.

18:18.548 --> 18:21.828
This is the physical beginning
of the universe which we

18:21.830 --> 18:25.660
inhabit, "even as ten from
the half and the fifth."

18:25.660 --> 18:28.790
In other words,
it's as sure as it is that two

18:28.791 --> 18:33.041
plus five make ten and "how
time should have its roots in

18:33.038 --> 18:36.238
that vessel and in the others
its leaves,

18:36.240 --> 18:37.470
may not be plain to thee."

18:37.470 --> 18:43.450
Even time begins here;
time is understood then by

18:43.451 --> 18:44.091
Dante.

18:44.088 --> 18:50.558
Do you see what the--there is a
kind of a tree growing from a

18:50.555 --> 18:53.675
part, the part of eternity.

18:53.680 --> 18:57.930
He does not understand time in
a linear way,

18:57.934 --> 19:03.674
there was a beginning and an
end, and it's not the wheel of

19:03.674 --> 19:07.044
time or the wheel of becoming.

19:07.038 --> 19:09.618
You may have heard this,
have you heard this description

19:09.621 --> 19:12.531
about the wheel of becoming in
which this is a platonic idea of

19:12.529 --> 19:15.059
time,
where all things are contained?

19:15.058 --> 19:19.168
Dante thinks of the tree,
of time as a tree,

19:19.170 --> 19:24.190
the roots of which are in the
pot of eternity and the foliages

19:24.186 --> 19:27.016
are in--
reach us--reach into our own

19:27.018 --> 19:27.518
world.

19:27.519 --> 19:31.339
We are in the shadow of the
tree of time.

19:31.338 --> 19:36.408
We only see leaves that will
fall because this idea of the

19:36.410 --> 19:39.790
dispersion and the falling of
time,

19:39.788 --> 19:44.558
the passing of time,
so this is the definition of

19:44.556 --> 19:46.936
what happens in XXVII.

19:46.940 --> 19:50.060
She continues after a while
with this--

19:50.058 --> 19:56.308
about once again the language
of covetousness and moral

19:56.307 --> 20:02.897
language about what happens in
the world and we move on to

20:02.903 --> 20:04.873
Canto XXVIII.

20:04.868 --> 20:08.518
Let me tell you I have not
forgotten that we ought to talk

20:08.520 --> 20:10.700
about Ulysses in a little while.

20:10.700 --> 20:18.150
Now it continues with,
XXVIII deals with the angelic

20:18.146 --> 20:19.896
hierarchy.

20:19.900 --> 20:24.370
We are now still in the
primum mobile but Dante

20:24.371 --> 20:28.671
starts seeing into the other
universe, the spiritual

20:28.673 --> 20:29.773
universe.

20:29.769 --> 20:34.729
He sees a universe which is
adjacent to the physical

20:34.730 --> 20:38.330
universe with--inhabited by
angels.

20:38.328 --> 20:43.148
The corresponding part that you
have the nine planets,

20:43.150 --> 20:46.300
the seven planets plus the
fixed stars and the crystalline

20:46.297 --> 20:48.497
heaven,
and now you have the nine

20:48.502 --> 20:51.612
orders of angels,
and Beatrice will go on

20:51.611 --> 20:54.751
describing the three triads of
angels;

20:54.750 --> 20:58.400
angels, archangels,
thrones, this is the language

20:58.395 --> 21:02.055
that comes from the Bible,
the Old Testament comes from

21:02.060 --> 21:05.440
Babylonian,
apparently in Persian sources,

21:05.443 --> 21:10.763
apocalyptic sources and would
not seem to be really terribly

21:10.763 --> 21:13.743
different from that tradition.

21:13.740 --> 21:18.950
Here, we have also another;
this whole description of the

21:18.954 --> 21:23.774
angelic order continues,
line 12 let me just focus on

21:23.773 --> 21:26.633
this a bit,
"And when I turned again

21:26.626 --> 21:29.746
and mine were met by what
appears in that revolving sphere

21:29.747 --> 21:32.317
to one that looks intently on
its circling,

21:32.319 --> 21:37.569
I saw a point," distance,
so we are at the boundary of

21:37.568 --> 21:40.848
the universe;
another universe emerges into

21:40.852 --> 21:46.252
view and Dante only sees "a
point which radiated a light so

21:46.246 --> 21:50.776
keen that the eye in which it
burns must close for its

21:50.784 --> 21:53.014
piercing power."

21:53.009 --> 21:56.389
Once again, a series of
revolving spheres,

21:56.394 --> 22:00.284
this universe is not the
projection of the other

22:00.276 --> 22:04.796
universe;
they are separate and adjacent.

22:04.798 --> 22:10.238
They are two hemispheres and
this is what happens in Canto

22:10.243 --> 22:15.883
XXVIII and we go to Canto XXIX,
and I ask you to see how the

22:15.880 --> 22:18.650
whole argument continues.

22:18.650 --> 22:24.180
Beatrice has been explaining
breathlessly the whole question

22:24.180 --> 22:29.630
of angelic hierarchy,
and by the end of Canto XXVIII

22:29.632 --> 22:32.402
he sees--
she even mentions that the

22:32.397 --> 22:36.447
order--actually it's Dante here
who mentions that the order--

22:36.450 --> 22:39.690
his ordering of angels,
the hierarchy,

22:39.690 --> 22:42.750
is very different from the one
of the pseudo Dionysius,

22:42.750 --> 22:45.790
line 130 where he says,
"These orders all gaze

22:45.788 --> 22:49.428
above and so prevail below that
all are drawn and all draw to

22:49.432 --> 22:49.922
God.

22:49.920 --> 22:53.470
And Dionysius set himself with
such zeal to contemplate,"

22:53.468 --> 22:56.548
this is the pseudo Dionysius
who had written about the

22:56.550 --> 22:59.700
angelic hierarchy,
and Dante goes on to say that

22:59.698 --> 23:02.988
he differs from him,
that he just--his idea of

23:02.988 --> 23:07.438
angels is a little different
from his and Pope Gregory's.

23:07.440 --> 23:11.310
A statement of his own
intellectual independence,

23:11.309 --> 23:15.259
both in terms of the theologian
and in terms of an

23:15.260 --> 23:17.600
ecclesiastical authority.

23:17.598 --> 23:23.678
And then Beatrice finishes the
description of this hierarchy,

23:23.680 --> 23:27.250
meaning the sacred order,
that's what the Greek word

23:27.250 --> 23:31.870
means,
the sacred order of angelic

23:31.865 --> 23:34.075
intelligences.

23:34.078 --> 23:38.648
Their function is to impart
motion to the spheres;

23:38.650 --> 23:43.550
their function is to move
between the divinity and human

23:43.548 --> 23:46.328
beings,
they are the messengers,

23:46.326 --> 23:50.406
they keep the spiritual
entities and they keep moving

23:50.414 --> 23:55.294
between God and human beings and
then we go to Canto XXIX where

23:55.288 --> 24:00.398
now the language of cosmology,
about the order of the cosmos

24:00.403 --> 24:04.793
becomes creation,
and I want to show this to you.

24:04.788 --> 24:08.378
However, this shift to the
language of creation is

24:08.377 --> 24:12.037
conducted in an extraordinarily
interesting way.

24:12.038 --> 24:15.968
Dante wants to say that
Beatrice has been talking

24:15.968 --> 24:19.318
nonstop about--
with probably a touch of

24:19.317 --> 24:22.497
playfulness about the angelic
orders,

24:22.500 --> 24:26.230
and then she moves almost like,
without catching her breath,

24:26.230 --> 24:30.520
talking about creation,
Canto XXIX.

24:30.519 --> 24:36.119
But look how this shift from
the order of angels to the order

24:36.118 --> 24:38.638
of creation is described.

24:38.640 --> 24:40.600
This is the beginning of Canto
XXIX,

24:40.598 --> 24:43.848
"When the two children of
Latona,

24:43.848 --> 24:47.008
covered by the Ram and by the
Scales,

24:47.009 --> 24:50.909
both at once make a belt of the
horizon,

24:50.910 --> 24:55.880
as long as from the moment when
the zenith holds them balanced

24:55.876 --> 24:59.526
till the one and the other,
changing hemispheres,

24:59.529 --> 25:01.489
are unbalanced from that
girdle,

25:01.490 --> 25:05.010
for so long,
have face illumined with a

25:05.007 --> 25:07.557
smile,
Beatrice kept silence,

25:07.555 --> 25:11.995
looking fixedly at the point
that had overcome me."

25:12.000 --> 25:14.340
What an extraordinary image.

25:14.338 --> 25:16.728
Let's read it again so we make
sure that we understand it

25:16.729 --> 25:18.649
because I'm not sure that it's
very clear,

25:18.650 --> 25:23.750
though I think it's--I can make
it clear but let's look at this

25:23.750 --> 25:24.410
again.

25:24.410 --> 25:26.180
"When the two children of
Latona,"

25:26.178 --> 25:28.768
meaning the Sun and the Moon,
that's really what he's saying.

25:28.769 --> 25:33.459
He has to describe the fact
that Beatrice seems not to have

25:33.461 --> 25:37.591
kept quiet that she went
endlessly from one thing to

25:37.587 --> 25:40.277
another,
that's what I call the

25:40.279 --> 25:42.739
playfulness of Dante's thinking.

25:42.740 --> 25:48.010
He's saying that there was,
this is the image that he uses,

25:48.010 --> 25:52.370
is when the children of Latona,
Apollo and Diana,

25:52.374 --> 25:56.014
you know that,
the Sun and the Moon.

25:56.009 --> 25:58.729
We're in the universe
of--though Dante is using

25:58.729 --> 26:01.509
mythical language,
look at the language first of

26:01.507 --> 26:01.977
all.

26:01.980 --> 26:04.470
The two children of Latona,
myth;

26:04.470 --> 26:06.680
"Covered by the Ram and
the Scales,"

26:06.679 --> 26:09.049
science,
"Both at once make a belt

26:09.045 --> 26:11.895
of the horizon,"
an Arabic word meaning the

26:11.904 --> 26:15.434
boundary of the heavens,
so science, scientific language.

26:15.430 --> 26:17.960
"As long as from that
moment when the zenith,"

26:17.964 --> 26:18.984
scientific language.

26:18.980 --> 26:22.750
The mixture and balancing of
science and myth,

26:22.750 --> 26:26.010
but also a way of talking about
the--

26:26.009 --> 26:32.459
a balance that is as vanishing
and as fleeting as it could ever

26:32.464 --> 26:34.864
be, that's the point.

26:34.858 --> 26:38.778
That there was silence but he
could almost not even tell that

26:38.779 --> 26:41.459
there was a break in Beatrice's
speech.

26:41.460 --> 26:45.700
This is what he is saying,
when the two children of

26:45.701 --> 26:52.771
Latona,
the Sun or Apollo and the Moon,

26:52.772 --> 26:55.692
Diana,
along the horizon,

26:55.693 --> 26:59.273
they seem to be aligned
together and they are held

26:59.270 --> 27:01.170
together by the zenith.

27:01.170 --> 27:04.190
This is the zenith,
the highest point as opposed to

27:04.191 --> 27:05.341
the nadir, right?

27:05.338 --> 27:09.688
This is the balance that he's
describing.

27:09.690 --> 27:14.650
They are kept in a balance
here, in a rare equilibrium,

27:14.650 --> 27:17.800
when they appear,
seemed to be aligned together

27:17.795 --> 27:21.825
and that balance and equilibrium
is quickly disappearing.

27:21.829 --> 27:23.459
What is he saying?

27:23.460 --> 27:27.920
He's saying that she almost
didn't stop speaking and then

27:27.920 --> 27:32.540
she began, then she goes on with
the theory of creation.

27:32.538 --> 27:35.318
"I tell,
not ask, what you wouldst hear;

27:35.318 --> 27:38.358
for I have seen it there where
every ubi and every

27:38.355 --> 27:40.575
quando is centred,"
place,

27:40.578 --> 27:42.738
I have seen at a point where
place,

27:42.740 --> 27:44.940
space, and time coincide.

27:44.940 --> 27:47.600
"Not to gain any good for
Himself,

27:47.598 --> 27:50.278
which cannot be,
but that His splendour,

27:50.279 --> 27:52.169
shining back,
might say,"

27:52.167 --> 27:54.097
I stay,
"Subsisto--in His

27:54.096 --> 27:55.266
eternity,
beyond time,

27:55.269 --> 27:58.239
beyond every other bound,
as it pleased Him,

27:58.240 --> 28:02.500
the Eternal Love revealed
Himself in new loves."

28:02.500 --> 28:07.490
I have to correct my good
friend, dear old friend

28:07.493 --> 28:13.013
Sinclair, because actually Dante
does not say that.

28:13.009 --> 28:18.899
He says that love,
the eternal love,

28:18.900 --> 28:21.470
actually the language which he
uses I don't know--

28:21.470 --> 28:23.530
I hope your other
translations--those of you who

28:23.526 --> 28:25.186
use other translations are
luckier,

28:25.190 --> 28:30.060
"opened itself in new
loves," opened itself.

28:30.058 --> 28:36.228
I take this to be a sexual
language as it can be found,

28:36.230 --> 28:42.400
a new love engendered,
opened itself into new loves.

28:42.400 --> 28:45.410
Then it in fact continues,
"Nor, before,

28:45.413 --> 28:49.143
did He lie as it were inert;
for until God's moving upon

28:49.135 --> 28:52.275
these waters there was no
'before' or 'after.'"

28:52.282 --> 28:55.432
Before God's creation the
language is biblical,

28:55.430 --> 28:57.650
from Genesis,
there was no before or nor

28:57.653 --> 28:58.113
after.

28:58.108 --> 29:00.668
In the physics,
this is an allusion to

29:00.672 --> 29:04.072
Aristotle's physics,
where Aristotle has to define

29:04.066 --> 29:06.686
time;
he says it's the measure,

29:06.690 --> 29:10.850
we speak of time when there is
a before and an after,

29:10.848 --> 29:13.968
because this is really what
time is.

29:13.970 --> 29:19.730
The measure of motion in regard
to a before and an after;

29:19.730 --> 29:22.730
Dante says that before this
time of creation there was no

29:22.731 --> 29:23.431
such thing.

29:23.430 --> 29:28.650
It could not be distinguished
before in terms of time,

29:28.650 --> 29:30.320
there was no such a thing as
before and after,

29:30.318 --> 29:33.058
and then he goes on just to
continue with this sexual

29:33.057 --> 29:35.347
metaphor,
"Form and matter,

29:35.345 --> 29:38.785
united and separate,
came into being that had no

29:38.785 --> 29:40.675
defect,
like three arrows from a

29:40.680 --> 29:42.090
three-stringed bow."

29:42.088 --> 29:45.538
The question of creation as a
coming together of form and

29:45.538 --> 29:48.248
matter is here described as a
conjunction.

29:48.250 --> 29:51.730
It's the language of creation
takes place as an act of love,

29:51.726 --> 29:54.256
that's the first thing
Beatrice's saying.

29:54.259 --> 29:57.959
Creation comes through as
passion, a love passion,

29:57.961 --> 30:02.041
it's an opening up in--love
opening up in new loves.

30:02.038 --> 30:05.668
It's as physical,
the language of creation,

30:05.671 --> 30:10.771
as it could ever be in terms of
the natural, the language of

30:10.770 --> 30:14.230
natural production and
reproduction.

30:14.230 --> 30:17.730
This is the context of what she
is saying, before and after.

30:17.730 --> 30:22.780
It is as if to have a creation,
creation is that which

30:22.775 --> 30:28.485
introduces the possibility of
distinguishing between a before

30:28.486 --> 30:32.846
and an after,
introduces a difference,

30:32.846 --> 30:37.366
that's what the language of
Beatrice is.

30:37.368 --> 30:40.388
Let me go back to the image
with which we started.

30:40.390 --> 30:48.010
Dante is wondering whether or
not there was any break in

30:48.009 --> 30:50.779
Beatrice's speech.

30:50.779 --> 30:55.219
He says if there was a break,
it was so fleeting as happens

30:55.222 --> 30:59.442
with whenever the Sun and the
Moon along the line of the

30:59.438 --> 31:03.448
horizon are going to be--
are aligned together and this

31:03.448 --> 31:07.028
is if they are balanced and are
held together by the zenith

31:07.025 --> 31:07.575
above.

31:07.578 --> 31:11.128
That is such a fleeting moment
in the alignment of the stars.

31:11.130 --> 31:13.690
Why this metaphor?

31:13.690 --> 31:18.500
Not only he's saying that but I
think there is also an allusion

31:18.502 --> 31:20.912
to Francesca here in Canto V.

31:20.910 --> 31:22.380
Did you catch it?

31:22.380 --> 31:24.970
Where he says,
"for so long her face

31:24.967 --> 31:28.587
illumined with a smile,
Beatrice kept silence,"

31:28.594 --> 31:32.824
she just kept on talking,
"looking fixedly at the

31:32.817 --> 31:35.667
point that had overcome
me."

31:35.670 --> 31:40.540
The point that had overcome me
is clearly an allusion to--not

31:40.539 --> 31:45.089
only a point was that that
overcame us, Francesca says in

31:45.085 --> 31:46.055
Canto V.

31:46.058 --> 31:49.458
That's all, so there's an
illusion to Francesca.

31:49.460 --> 31:53.110
The question that I have to
answer that I raised with you is

31:53.106 --> 31:56.876
why is Dante mentioning these
two infernal figures and framing

31:56.877 --> 31:59.657
his discussion on cosmology of
creation,

31:59.660 --> 32:02.890
first of all by talking about
Ulysses and now talking about,

32:02.890 --> 32:04.720
or alluding to,
not even mentioning,

32:04.720 --> 32:07.550
but alluding to Francesca.

32:07.548 --> 32:11.448
Why this one who wants to
transgress and trespass the

32:11.450 --> 32:14.750
boundaries of the world in order
to know,

32:14.750 --> 32:19.610
the other one who transgresses
the norms of what is allowed

32:19.611 --> 32:21.121
because of love.

32:21.118 --> 32:25.128
Knowledge and love somehow come
into play but they are in the

32:25.128 --> 32:26.798
Inferno version.

32:26.798 --> 32:29.018
What is he saying though with
this image?

32:29.019 --> 32:33.949
Why has he talked about
Francesca, the Sun and the Moon

32:33.949 --> 32:38.239
align briefly,
what do you think he's saying?

32:38.240 --> 32:43.600
It's not a rhetorical question;
let me just--why do you think

32:43.597 --> 32:45.617
he would use this kind of
language?

32:45.618 --> 32:48.048
Immediately,
after Beatrice goes on

32:48.048 --> 32:51.978
explaining the creation of the
world and the distinction

32:51.980 --> 32:54.410
between a before and an after.

32:54.410 --> 32:55.620
Why this metaphor?

32:55.619 --> 32:57.829
Why this long paragraph?

32:57.829 --> 33:03.879
This image here, anybody?

33:03.880 --> 33:08.900
I think that Dante's asking
right here,

33:08.900 --> 33:14.210
is it possible to localize a
break and he's saying it is as

33:14.212 --> 33:19.802
when we speak that things seem
to be continuous and just as in

33:19.800 --> 33:25.300
every syllable between a sound
and another there is always an

33:25.298 --> 33:30.518
interval so there was in the
language of Beatrice,

33:30.519 --> 33:34.099
and that's what to him is the
idea of creation.

33:34.098 --> 33:37.568
It seems to be--there is--the
opposite of creation would be

33:37.567 --> 33:40.797
the eternity of the world,
something which would be the

33:40.795 --> 33:44.325
universe is eternal;
it has no beginning and no

33:44.332 --> 33:45.952
identifiable break.

33:45.950 --> 33:46.980
How can you tell?

33:46.980 --> 33:52.840
If the universe is eternal you
have no differences inside it.

33:52.838 --> 33:57.788
Dante wants to say it seems to
be a continuous--the universe

33:57.794 --> 34:01.074
seems to have a continuous
extension.

34:01.068 --> 34:05.478
Without time a kind of
eternity, it goes on and on,

34:05.480 --> 34:10.690
and yet it's as when we speak
that you can identify the break,

34:10.690 --> 34:15.690
there was however minute there
was a break between Beatrice's

34:15.690 --> 34:20.440
exposition about the angelic
orders and now the exposition

34:20.442 --> 34:24.612
that she goes into about the--
about creation.

34:24.610 --> 34:28.100
Why then, the other two
metaphors, now it's time to

34:28.097 --> 34:31.717
answer that question,
why talking through Ulysses and

34:31.722 --> 34:32.702
Francesca?

34:32.699 --> 34:34.669
Why evoke those two images?

34:34.670 --> 34:40.170
I wish we could--I have to keep
that hanging awhile so it can

34:40.170 --> 34:44.940
become a little bit more
compelling what I'm going to

34:44.938 --> 34:46.128
tell you.

34:46.130 --> 34:49.330
With it order,
"And as a ray

34:49.326 --> 34:53.316
shines,"
Beatrice is continuing with

34:53.322 --> 34:57.352
form and matter,
united and separate,

34:57.349 --> 35:01.779
this is conjoined and pure,
pure and conjoined.

35:01.780 --> 35:04.880
She says, "as a ray shines
into glass or amber or crystal

35:04.876 --> 35:07.616
so that from its coming to its
completeness there is no

35:07.619 --> 35:09.949
interval,
so the threefold creation

35:09.952 --> 35:14.042
flashed into being from its Lord
all at once without distinction

35:14.041 --> 35:15.341
in its beginning.

35:15.340 --> 35:19.130
With it, order was created and
ordained for the spirits,

35:19.126 --> 35:22.696
and these were the summit of
the universe in whom was

35:22.704 --> 35:25.124
produced pure act;
pure potency,"

35:25.121 --> 35:25.931
and so on."

35:25.929 --> 35:30.059
The idea is that there is a
universe of creation,

35:30.059 --> 35:34.429
the universe of creation which
seems to be very much like the

35:34.429 --> 35:38.929
physical world,
it's described in physical

35:38.929 --> 35:44.449
terms, the terms of the Moon and
sexuality,

35:44.449 --> 35:47.399
the cosmological language and
scientific terms,

35:47.400 --> 35:52.100
and yet there is some kind of
difference that is introduced.

35:52.099 --> 35:54.739
Without creation we would not
have differences,

35:54.739 --> 35:57.839
we would not even have origins
that is the language.

35:57.840 --> 35:59.340
Now, why those two figures?

35:59.340 --> 36:05.610
Why Ulysses and Francesca?

36:05.610 --> 36:09.260
Ulysses, I think that what
Dante is doing,

36:09.260 --> 36:14.690
finally is allowing us to see
what the world of Inferno

36:14.690 --> 36:16.650
has to be seen as.

36:16.650 --> 36:20.360
The world of Inferno
that we only saw as a world of

36:20.358 --> 36:24.158
rejected,
as a world of evil and horror,

36:24.155 --> 36:29.375
all of a sudden is now
retrieved as the best exemplar

36:29.382 --> 36:34.812
of what we may come to know of
the spiritual world.

36:34.809 --> 36:40.049
It is almost an imaginative
redemption that Dante goes into

36:40.054 --> 36:42.954
about the actual idea of hell.

36:42.949 --> 36:47.049
He's implying,
and that could become in many

36:47.052 --> 36:49.932
ways heretical,
but I hope to show you that it

36:49.931 --> 36:53.091
is not,
that the universe as it goes

36:53.090 --> 36:57.410
back--as one goes back to the
beginnings,

36:57.409 --> 37:02.969
clearly the journey to the
beginnings has to be seen as

37:02.974 --> 37:07.514
redemption of order has been
falling away.

37:07.510 --> 37:11.210
Let me just say it in a
slightly less tortuous way.

37:11.210 --> 37:16.230
There can be no redemption
unless it implies that the whole

37:16.228 --> 37:19.428
of evil is overcome and
destroyed,

37:19.429 --> 37:24.039
so that even the world of hell
now appears all of a sudden as

37:24.038 --> 37:28.488
part of what we get to know
about the ultimate structure of

37:28.494 --> 37:29.804
the universe.

37:29.800 --> 37:34.810
This seems to me to be the real
lesson,

37:34.809 --> 37:39.029
the underlying and powerful
message that Dante is sending

37:39.029 --> 37:43.399
through these three cantos in
the heaven of metaphysics.

37:43.400 --> 37:46.840
Let me stop here before I move
into the next canto,

37:46.842 --> 37:50.702
Canto XXX and see if there
are--let me take the questions

37:50.697 --> 37:53.587
now before we go on to the next
canto.

37:53.590 --> 37:58.690
I could go back maybe and try
to redo what I have been saying

37:58.690 --> 38:01.330
because it's--
but let me see if there are

38:01.331 --> 38:03.281
some questions and then we can
do that,

38:03.280 --> 38:03.870
please.

38:03.869 --> 38:05.729
Student:  Are you
suggesting

38:05.731 --> 38:07.211
>

38:07.210 --> 38:15.030
of the entire world creation is
redeemable including those

38:15.028 --> 38:18.868
>?

38:18.869 --> 38:20.089
Prof: He never says that.

38:20.090 --> 38:22.930
Let me be very, very clear.

38:22.929 --> 38:25.319
He never says it anywhere.

38:25.320 --> 38:28.390


38:28.389 --> 38:31.149
There is never an indication
thematically,

38:31.150 --> 38:35.100
there is everything else that I
have said I could find

38:35.101 --> 38:39.611
counterparts in a thematic,
thematized, in the sense that

38:39.606 --> 38:44.606
it becomes part of a conscious
articulation on the part of her;

38:44.610 --> 38:48.610
he knows and he thematizes,
he makes it a theme clear,

38:48.612 --> 38:50.202
he never says that.

38:50.199 --> 38:56.189
But there are two implications
though that I'm drawing on in

38:56.186 --> 39:01.256
order to be able to make that
kind of statement.

39:01.260 --> 39:07.480
The first is the very idea of
the cosmos as a sphere,

39:07.480 --> 39:10.640
and the idea of the cosmos as a
sphere,

39:10.639 --> 39:14.609
it really means that wherever
you are going and you are going

39:14.612 --> 39:17.442
toward God,
then you are going back to the

39:17.440 --> 39:19.760
beginning,
everything else can go back to

39:19.755 --> 39:21.825
the beginning because that's the
form,

39:21.829 --> 39:23.109
the shape of the cosmos.

39:23.110 --> 39:27.820
I'm drawing out the implication
about this understanding of the

39:27.822 --> 39:28.662
universe.

39:28.659 --> 39:32.959
The other reason is that there
is such a thing as a redemption

39:32.961 --> 39:35.661
and Dante's--
we didn't read the canto,

39:35.657 --> 39:39.327
Canto VII of Paradise is
focused on redemption,

39:39.329 --> 39:43.089
a new beginning,
that's what redemption means.

39:43.090 --> 39:46.680
Redemption means that the
cosmos can go back to its

39:46.675 --> 39:50.185
beginning and be restored in its
original form.

39:50.190 --> 39:54.280
If this is true,
it could very well be that from

39:54.284 --> 39:59.424
the point of view of the poem,
Lucifer is always going to be

39:59.422 --> 40:01.952
stuck in his ice forever.

40:01.949 --> 40:04.869
There's no hint that he can
move even.

40:04.869 --> 40:09.169
Francesca is always moving
around in vicious circles,

40:09.168 --> 40:13.548
remembering and then lost in
the labyrinth of time.

40:13.550 --> 40:16.710
To her, she literally moves in
time;

40:16.710 --> 40:20.980
memory--cannot think about the
past without being moved by it

40:20.978 --> 40:23.608
and must move constantly around
it.

40:23.610 --> 40:27.020
Ulysses gets lost who knows
where,

40:27.018 --> 40:31.308
there is nowhere for him,
he has no sense of a place,

40:31.309 --> 40:35.969
even from this point of view I
can go on understanding that in

40:35.969 --> 40:40.589
a canto where a place matters,
Ulysses never had a sense of

40:40.586 --> 40:44.416
belonging anywhere,
that's the utter dislocation

40:44.418 --> 40:47.338
and a kind of--
he doesn't have a family that

40:47.342 --> 40:48.872
holds him back,
the children,

40:48.871 --> 40:50.281
the kingdom,
Ithaca, anything,

40:50.280 --> 40:52.000
he just goes on moving.

40:52.000 --> 40:55.480
That is the overt sense of the
poem,

40:55.480 --> 40:58.770
but there is this theology of
redemption,

40:58.768 --> 41:03.488
and I'm wondering whether
theology of redemption does not

41:03.494 --> 41:08.644
entail necessarily that there is
a return to the beginning.

41:08.639 --> 41:12.369
Before I go on though with
restatements of this--

41:12.369 --> 41:18.479
I want to ask you to--because I
think it's one of the--

41:18.480 --> 41:22.340
a technique that Dante uses
which is really extraordinary,

41:22.340 --> 41:24.470
can you go to the beginning of
canto--

41:24.469 --> 41:32.869
the famous image of Latona when
the two children of Latona--

41:32.869 --> 41:36.469
beginning of Canto XXIX,
I really would like to ask you

41:36.467 --> 41:38.997
to look at the Italian a little
bit.

41:39.000 --> 41:43.050
I'm not going to read it,
I'm not going to ask you to

41:43.045 --> 41:48.175
read, I'm only going to ask you
to look, I won't read it though.

41:48.179 --> 41:51.659
At the first word,
quando right?

41:51.659 --> 41:55.449
You all see that,
and look at line--

41:55.449 --> 41:59.479
that's really the proem,
what we call rhetorically the

41:59.478 --> 42:02.618
prosthesis of the canto,
the beginning of the canto,

42:02.623 --> 42:03.883
the introduction of the canto.

42:03.880 --> 42:06.650
Go to line 12,
the last word,

42:06.653 --> 42:08.243
quando.

42:08.239 --> 42:14.799
Go to the first--back to the
first line, the last word in

42:14.804 --> 42:17.154
that line, Latona.

42:17.150 --> 42:19.280
He says, "of Latona."

42:19.280 --> 42:22.340
The first two letters
"la"

42:22.340 --> 42:26.380
go back to canto--
to line 12, the first two

42:26.380 --> 42:29.680
letters "la,"
draw this--

42:29.679 --> 42:32.829
that's a chiasmus,
draw the lines together,

42:32.829 --> 42:37.119
and they will meet exactly at
the word hemisphere,

42:37.119 --> 42:40.329
emisfero,
that's the center.

42:40.329 --> 42:44.239
That's the--hemisphere means
that they are--it's

42:44.239 --> 42:48.569
half--hemi--the Greek is
the two half spheres,

42:48.565 --> 42:52.805
the universe is two half
spheres composing one.

42:52.809 --> 42:59.009
I think Dante's placing us at a
cosmic crossroads.

42:59.010 --> 43:02.960
He is locating us,
he's telling us where we are

43:02.956 --> 43:06.826
first of all,
but he's also telling us that

43:06.833 --> 43:12.193
this universe has a kind of very
occult and very secret laws.

43:12.190 --> 43:16.040
The poem has these secret laws
that regulate it.

43:16.039 --> 43:23.639
I'm really arguing then that
there is this subtext that is if

43:23.644 --> 43:31.124
a radical redemptive theology
would only entail the absolute

43:31.123 --> 43:37.083
purification of evil,
so that the universe will have

43:37.083 --> 43:41.973
to really go back to this kind
of Pythagorean purity,

43:41.969 --> 43:44.999
but without the phases and
descents.

43:45.000 --> 43:49.870
These are--you know what I mean
all of you, this Pythagorean

43:49.871 --> 43:54.411
idea that the life of the
universe stretches for 360,000

43:54.414 --> 43:55.244
years.

43:55.239 --> 43:56.529
Did you ever hear about that?

43:56.530 --> 44:01.530
360,000 years which are really
like the days of the year,

44:01.528 --> 44:07.088
the 365 I think we have;
360,000 years.

44:07.090 --> 44:10.720
Every 360,000 years the
universe rotates and goes back

44:10.724 --> 44:13.334
to its point of origin and then
it--

44:13.329 --> 44:15.759
decadence starts again,
the age of gold,

44:15.760 --> 44:18.890
the age of silver,
the age of iron,

44:18.889 --> 44:21.789
the age of paper we would call
it now.

44:21.789 --> 44:26.259
It goes back to its origin,
that's not the way Dante

44:26.259 --> 44:29.939
understands the movement of the
cosmos,

44:29.940 --> 44:36.390
but he does understand the--he
does present this redemptive

44:36.387 --> 44:43.387
event that makes the universe
return to its pristine purity,

44:43.389 --> 44:45.759
that's why I made that
statement.

44:45.760 --> 44:50.160
Any other points before I go
back because I really think I

44:50.164 --> 44:53.184
should say all of what I said
before.

44:53.179 --> 44:57.019
Any other questions so I can
help clarify these various

44:57.018 --> 44:57.658
points?

44:57.659 --> 44:59.699
Yes.

44:59.699 --> 45:02.009
Student:  What is the
redemptive event?

45:02.010 --> 45:02.860
Prof: I'm sorry.

45:02.860 --> 45:04.200
Student:  What is the
redemptive event?

45:04.199 --> 45:05.539
Prof: The incarnation.

45:05.539 --> 45:09.889
The incarnation is the
redemptive event that allows--it

45:09.894 --> 45:12.884
means what is the redemptive
event?

45:12.880 --> 45:16.250
The incarnation,
I call it redemptive event that

45:16.248 --> 45:19.108
would make the--
a new creation,

45:19.110 --> 45:24.870
a new Adam has come into the
world and that new Adam,

45:24.869 --> 45:30.659
through the sacrifice,
his sacrifice through the gift

45:30.663 --> 45:33.643
God gave--
allowed the incarnation because

45:33.643 --> 45:36.193
human beings on their own would
not be capable.

45:36.190 --> 45:38.480
That's the theology of
redemption.

45:38.480 --> 45:43.180
Human beings on their own would
not be able to save and redeem

45:43.184 --> 45:46.814
themselves so that an
intervention from God,

45:46.809 --> 45:51.119
through his son,
was made inevitable in order to

45:51.117 --> 45:55.967
reconstruct and in order to
bring out and produce that

45:55.974 --> 45:59.004
original order of the cosmos.

45:59.000 --> 46:00.950
If that is true,
and it is true,

46:00.949 --> 46:04.409
and you only have to look at
everywhere in the poem,

46:04.409 --> 46:06.639
but Canto VII of
Paradise,

46:06.635 --> 46:10.385
that's really where it is an
annunciation of this whole

46:10.391 --> 46:14.241
theory in the terms of--
for those of you who are,

46:14.239 --> 46:18.309
Anselm, etc.,
then that implies that there

46:18.313 --> 46:23.763
must be some kind of general
remaking of the world.

46:23.760 --> 46:27.290
That's what I think the
idea--but nonetheless this

46:27.289 --> 46:31.539
should not obscure the fact that
there is a kind of a paired

46:31.541 --> 46:35.291
juxtaposition between the
physical description of the

46:35.286 --> 46:39.246
world and the spiritual
description of the world.

46:39.250 --> 46:42.540
There are two hemispheres and
yet they are connected;

46:42.539 --> 46:44.869
the spiritual,
the creation,

46:44.865 --> 46:49.775
the experience of creation is
really the way of positing a

46:49.777 --> 46:53.997
distinctionary difference into
the universe--

46:54.000 --> 46:57.590
into the theory that the world
is eternal.

46:57.590 --> 47:02.740
They are two conceptions that,
operative in the Middle Ages,

47:02.739 --> 47:06.259
and they are really represented
by--

47:06.260 --> 47:11.250
one is by Aquinas who is a
theologian but he is also a

47:11.248 --> 47:13.438
philosopher,
and in fact,

47:13.440 --> 47:16.760
he could be called as the
writer who wants to make a

47:16.757 --> 47:18.447
philosophical theology.

47:18.449 --> 47:23.669
He argues, he's known for the
famous Suma;

47:23.670 --> 47:27.300
he wrote a track called Suma
Against the Gentiles,

47:27.300 --> 47:32.550
not the Suma of Theology
but Summa Contra Gentiles

47:32.550 --> 47:36.720
where he argues that the
eternity of the world,

47:36.719 --> 47:39.069
the theory of the eternity of
the world,

47:39.070 --> 47:40.820
that is to say there is no
creation,

47:40.820 --> 47:44.700
he says could be
philosophically demonstrated.

47:44.699 --> 47:49.129
It could also be
philosophically repudiated.

47:49.130 --> 47:54.100
Philosophy can argue one side
of it, and he goes on arguing

47:54.096 --> 47:58.886
that there is no way of thinking
of--the usual questions,

47:58.891 --> 48:01.291
who created the Creator?

48:01.289 --> 48:04.569
That kind of--the oldest,
these objections.

48:04.570 --> 48:10.160
However, there is a view of
creation which is allowed and

48:10.163 --> 48:13.863
it's possible on account of
faith,

48:13.860 --> 48:17.950
but it also allows for the
thought of freedom,

48:17.949 --> 48:21.639
origins, beginnings, etc.

48:21.639 --> 48:25.569
Bonaventure picks up some of
these ideas, the ideas debated

48:25.574 --> 48:29.514
in Paris in the thirteenth
century around 1270 in Paris.

48:29.510 --> 48:32.450
Both of them are teachers at
the university.

48:32.449 --> 48:35.029
Bonaventure says no,
this is untenable,

48:35.027 --> 48:37.737
the idea of the eternity of the
world.

48:37.739 --> 48:41.559
It is absolutely untenable,
because if the world were

48:41.557 --> 48:45.007
eternal then we really would
have no way of--

48:45.010 --> 48:48.860
no real succession of
generations, there would be

48:48.864 --> 48:52.804
endless people who have been
living before us,

48:52.800 --> 48:56.760
there's no evidence for this,
it would be endless forms of--

48:56.760 --> 49:01.110
he holds, and he upholds the
idea of creation.

49:01.110 --> 49:04.650
Dante intervenes into this
debate and says,

49:04.650 --> 49:09.130
that it is effectively the
physical world and the spiritual

49:09.126 --> 49:13.796
world are really one continuous,
they're one complimentary to

49:13.797 --> 49:16.427
the other,
and yet there is a difference

49:16.431 --> 49:19.601
between them,
and the difference between them

49:19.603 --> 49:23.803
is the difference that he can
find in Beatrice's speech,

49:23.800 --> 49:27.680
that little point of time,
that little intrusion of time

49:27.679 --> 49:31.699
that distinguishes between one
sound and another sound.

49:31.699 --> 49:35.079
The spiritual universe
originates in the world of

49:35.083 --> 49:38.683
nature as a natural production
and reproduction,

49:38.679 --> 49:42.829
all of God's love and the
physical world in exactly the

49:42.833 --> 49:43.683
same way.

49:43.679 --> 49:46.179
There is a kind of symmetry.

49:46.179 --> 49:49.679
This is not Plato's inverted
universe.

49:49.679 --> 49:53.569
The physical world is not
Plato's inverted world,

49:53.574 --> 49:55.364
it's adjacent to it.

49:55.360 --> 50:00.920
It is as if Dante discovers
that there are more dimensions

50:00.918 --> 50:06.768
to the world that we see than
what medieval cosmologists,

50:06.768 --> 50:09.748
or classical cosmologists had
imagined.

50:09.750 --> 50:12.960
Interestingly enough,
and I don't say this is a proof

50:12.956 --> 50:15.296
for any of what I have said at
all,

50:15.300 --> 50:18.260
but there's a famous
nineteenth-century mathematician

50:18.260 --> 50:21.180
by the name of Riemann,
a German mathematician.

50:21.179 --> 50:24.819
I don't know how many of you
studied history of science,

50:24.822 --> 50:28.532
he was--he's known among other
things for having been the

50:28.532 --> 50:31.052
mathematics professor of
Einstein.

50:31.050 --> 50:35.550
Well he went on with a team of
his students studying these

50:35.552 --> 50:39.902
cantos of the Divine
Comedy to find evidence that

50:39.898 --> 50:44.638
in fact Dante had already a
theory of fourth dimension,

50:44.639 --> 50:47.019
that there is the universe that
we see and then there is another

50:47.023 --> 50:47.443
universe.

50:47.440 --> 50:50.930
It is almost as if the folds of
books,

50:50.929 --> 50:55.179
the folds of the parchments are
exactly giving an idea--

50:55.179 --> 50:58.719
that's Riemann's,
not me, an idea about what the

50:58.717 --> 51:01.877
actual structure of the universe
may be.

51:01.880 --> 51:05.450
Having said this,
don't forget to turn back to me

51:05.449 --> 51:09.839
my shell, the emblem of what I
take very good--thank you.

51:09.840 --> 51:13.770
Let me see if there are some
questions because I--we can go

51:13.773 --> 51:16.763
on now talking about some of
these issues.

51:16.760 --> 51:18.190
Please.

51:18.190 --> 51:22.740
Student:  I'm still not
quite clear as to how in

51:22.744 --> 51:27.474
reference to Ulysses and
Francesca in these cantos relate

51:27.467 --> 51:32.527
Beatrice's description of the
universe and redemption back to

51:32.527 --> 51:36.907
Inferno and how the
redemption of the universe

51:36.914 --> 51:42.654
necessarily implicates including
Inferno as well as--

51:42.650 --> 51:46.600
Prof: Excellent question
and I really welcome your

51:46.601 --> 51:47.521
skepticism.

51:47.518 --> 51:52.318
The question is about how
exactly do the figures of

51:52.324 --> 51:58.094
Ulysses and Francesca shed light
on what's happening here?

51:58.090 --> 52:04.030
Is it really tenable that
Dante's implying that

52:04.034 --> 52:10.244
those--that the sinners are
going to be redeemed,

52:10.237 --> 52:11.527
saved?

52:11.530 --> 52:16.190
More or less that's--
Student:  Yeah and why?

52:16.190 --> 52:19.510
Why they're brought up--how
they fit into that explanation?

52:19.510 --> 52:23.490
Prof: Good,
I figure that's a crucial

52:23.489 --> 52:24.229
issue.

52:24.230 --> 52:29.590
It's interesting that Dante
should look at Ulysses and bring

52:29.592 --> 52:33.322
up the image of Ulysses in Canto
XXVII.

52:33.320 --> 52:36.070
I find it interesting in
that--and Dante,

52:36.072 --> 52:39.242
one can say,
Dante is really unlike Ulysses.

52:39.239 --> 52:43.089
Now he probably realizes how
different he is from Ulysses

52:43.092 --> 52:47.682
because Ulysses went to--
he's implying how risky his own

52:47.681 --> 52:51.651
enterprise may be which we have
seen before.

52:51.650 --> 52:55.740
Ulysses was brought up in this
journey in canto--

52:55.739 --> 52:57.949
with the meeting with the dream
of a siren was--

52:57.949 --> 53:02.139
happened even before indirectly
many of the--

53:02.139 --> 53:06.259
in some other cases XXVI,
in Canto I of Inferno

53:06.257 --> 53:09.187
even,
and maybe we could just stop

53:09.193 --> 53:12.593
there and say well,
Dante's still--that's a kind of

53:12.585 --> 53:14.025
retrospective fascination.

53:14.030 --> 53:20.230
He's looking back and
pinpointing that tragic moment

53:20.231 --> 53:24.281
because--
he calls it the mad track of

53:24.280 --> 53:27.230
Ulysses,
the madness implies that

53:27.226 --> 53:30.436
he--this man had violated the
limits,

53:30.440 --> 53:34.640
own limits, including the
limits of reason in his rational

53:34.639 --> 53:37.639
pursuit,
philosophical investigation of

53:37.641 --> 53:40.661
the world,
the scientific--he wants to go

53:40.663 --> 53:43.053
into the--
unpeopled world to have

53:43.052 --> 53:45.982
experience,
that's the key word for him and

53:45.983 --> 53:49.513
yet that madness implies that he
had been delirious,

53:49.510 --> 53:52.860
had been going off the track.

53:52.860 --> 53:57.210
Dante maybe that too,
but maybe not,

53:57.210 --> 53:59.380
maybe I'm really a little safer
now,

53:59.380 --> 54:02.300
I'm in the hands of Beatrice,
she's guiding me,

54:02.300 --> 54:06.640
a way of trusting Beatrice so
we could say that that is all

54:06.635 --> 54:11.265
true and therefore I could even
see an element of relief on the

54:11.268 --> 54:13.728
part of Dante,
we would even catch that.

54:13.730 --> 54:19.050
The relief is that his own
adventure diminishes the epic,

54:19.045 --> 54:23.405
the Greek epic hero,
he really did very little,

54:23.413 --> 54:27.973
he just went beyond the Pillars
of Hercules.

54:27.969 --> 54:29.579
That's all, we could stop there.

54:29.579 --> 54:32.319
It happens though,
retrospectively,

54:32.322 --> 54:36.602
we can see the story of Ulysses
as also the story of a

54:36.597 --> 54:38.047
metaphysician.

54:38.050 --> 54:41.640
Dante is in the heaven of
metaphysics, in what way is he

54:41.639 --> 54:44.969
in the place of--what does
metaphysics deal with?

54:44.969 --> 54:48.379
It deals with place,
deals with time,

54:48.380 --> 54:51.350
and then we can understand why
Ulysses in Canto XXVI,

54:51.349 --> 54:56.409
he seems to be going from place
to place is the metaphor that

54:56.407 --> 54:58.427
distinguishes Ulysses.

54:58.429 --> 55:01.529
Then Dante says,
he's a failed metaphysician,

55:01.530 --> 55:03.750
but we understand that he
really was going to the

55:03.753 --> 55:05.963
absolute,
he really was trying to go

55:05.960 --> 55:08.690
where I'm going and there is
nothing else.

55:08.690 --> 55:09.600
We stop there.

55:09.599 --> 55:13.739
We go to Beatrice,
Dante meets--is talking to--

55:13.739 --> 55:19.879
is listening to Beatrice in
Canto XXIX and he's trying to

55:19.878 --> 55:25.798
figure out if it's possible to
think of a beginning.

55:25.800 --> 55:31.110
How do things--you have the
eternity of forms and you have

55:31.114 --> 55:35.464
the eternity of matter,
it's very difficult to know how

55:35.463 --> 55:39.003
you could really distinguish
anything that was before from

55:38.998 --> 55:41.758
what goes after,
there is no such a thing as a

55:41.764 --> 55:42.874
before and an after.

55:42.869 --> 55:46.529
He tries to localize time,
that's really the problem.

55:46.530 --> 55:53.110
To localize time he says that
he really--Beatrice looked and

55:53.105 --> 56:00.235
reminded him of the point--there
was a point of joy that overcame

56:00.237 --> 56:01.127
him.

56:01.130 --> 56:04.330
Maybe he's alluding,
because the language is that of

56:04.327 --> 56:06.207
Francesca, so why Francesca?

56:06.210 --> 56:09.900
Let me just explain it at one
point, maybe he's alluding to a

56:09.903 --> 56:12.493
kiss the two of them--that he
remembers.

56:12.489 --> 56:15.639
It's sort of very spiritualized
the context;

56:15.639 --> 56:18.429
Dante's never vulgar,
maybe he's just alluding to a

56:18.434 --> 56:21.554
kiss they had been exchanging,
or maybe the will,

56:21.554 --> 56:24.744
the desire, the longing to have
a kiss now,

56:24.739 --> 56:26.179
exchange a kiss with her.

56:26.179 --> 56:29.419
One thing is clear,
that he's thinking of Francesca

56:29.418 --> 56:33.368
as also a kind of metaphysician
because that's what we are.

56:33.369 --> 56:36.159
What is the metaphysics of
Francesca?

56:36.159 --> 56:38.469
Metaphysics of desire,
first of all,

56:38.471 --> 56:42.501
a desire that--what does it
mean the metaphysics of desire?

56:42.500 --> 56:46.540
Desire by its own definition is
metaphysical in the sense that

56:46.541 --> 56:50.251
it's always moving beyond the
objects it gains because it

56:50.253 --> 56:52.443
burns up the various objects.

56:52.440 --> 56:54.620
Today I want this book,
then I want another book,

56:54.619 --> 56:56.659
and then I want the car,
and then I want the library,

56:56.659 --> 57:00.529
etc., that's the infinite
movement of desire which is what

57:00.528 --> 57:04.088
we call metaphysics of desire,
so she's a metaphysician.

57:04.090 --> 57:06.570
Not only she's as
metaphysician,

57:06.570 --> 57:10.490
she lives in time,
so she's a complimentary figure

57:10.489 --> 57:11.689
to Ulysses.

57:11.690 --> 57:13.840
Ulysses is, you remember,
is >

57:13.840 --> 57:19.010
Cauta, I left behind me Seville
and then I, etc.,

57:19.012 --> 57:19.662
etc.

57:19.659 --> 57:23.419
Now, Francesca instead says how
difficult it is to remember the

57:23.418 --> 57:24.568
joys of the past.

57:24.570 --> 57:28.200
I remember I was reading,
that day I began reading,

57:28.199 --> 57:31.519
that day I stopped reading,
only a point was that that

57:31.519 --> 57:35.349
overcame at that point of time,
a point of the book, etc.

57:35.349 --> 57:38.869
Maybe Dante's really saying she
too is another failed

57:38.867 --> 57:39.947
metaphysician.

57:39.949 --> 57:44.419
They would like to be where I
am now, both Francesca and

57:44.423 --> 57:49.553
Ulysses, so we are bringing them
to the place where Dante is.

57:49.550 --> 57:54.510
Now, they are looking for the
same thing he is having now,

57:54.510 --> 57:56.810
a conjunction of time and
eternity,

57:56.809 --> 57:59.739
space and time,
ubi and quando,

57:59.739 --> 58:02.609
to see the point where all
things cohere.

58:02.610 --> 58:05.450
That's exactly where he is
looking.

58:05.449 --> 58:07.749
How do I make things cohere?

58:07.750 --> 58:12.470
Of course it's possible to
think--one way of thinking of

58:12.465 --> 58:17.775
Paradise and the joy of
the blessed is to go on thinking

58:17.782 --> 58:20.912
that my joy--
suppose that I were saved,

58:20.913 --> 58:22.783
a very unlikely proposition.

58:22.780 --> 58:28.340
My joy, it's possible to argue,
is increased by--

58:28.340 --> 58:30.680
it's sadistic,
the view of those who are

58:30.679 --> 58:34.159
suffering,
mercifully, I am saying that to

58:34.155 --> 58:39.375
me it's the most improbable form
of beatitude but it's likely

58:39.375 --> 58:45.025
that seeing someone downtrodden
and punished right like that,

58:45.030 --> 58:48.300
could be that Dante is saying,
how lucky I am that I'm neither

58:48.300 --> 58:50.500
like Ulysses nor like really
Francesca.

58:50.500 --> 58:53.460
I don't think that that's Dante
though.

58:53.460 --> 58:58.310
He's talking about cosmology
and creation,

58:58.309 --> 59:02.229
the order of everything,
how this order is an order of

59:02.231 --> 59:06.301
love and now he's coming to know
this order of love,

59:06.300 --> 59:09.680
because now knowledge is love
and love is knowledge.

59:09.679 --> 59:14.489
I think that by the allusion to
them he's also saying that here

59:14.485 --> 59:18.735
on earth you can grant me that,
that's what I said before,

59:18.737 --> 59:21.847
and I think that I'm not
pushing it to the point of

59:21.847 --> 59:23.027
unbelievability.

59:23.030 --> 59:24.710
The whole argument becomes
unbelievable,

59:24.710 --> 59:27.910
I can stay here and say,
well now--what he's really

59:27.909 --> 59:31.559
saying is that I am here and I
see how things go here,

59:31.559 --> 59:34.409
but I know that sinful people
on Earth,

59:34.409 --> 59:37.709
those of us who live in the
shadows of time,

59:37.710 --> 59:42.390
this tree and we're under the
leaves of time,

59:42.389 --> 59:48.279
then I know that in a sinful
way they were trying to do and

59:48.280 --> 59:52.650
know what I now have come to do
and know.

59:52.650 --> 59:55.070
I could stop here and say well
we're all happy,

59:55.074 --> 59:57.764
there's no argument,
I think that that makes logical

59:57.762 --> 59:58.292
sense.

59:58.289 --> 1:00:02.919
I can push it to the point of
absurdity,

1:00:02.920 --> 1:00:07.980
to say look maybe if this is
true, he's also saying not only

1:00:07.978 --> 1:00:11.548
that they in a shadowy way,
in a dim way,

1:00:11.554 --> 1:00:16.124
were anticipating the real
happiness in the sinful modes,

1:00:16.119 --> 1:00:19.549
the sinners,
but that maybe they too if you

1:00:19.554 --> 1:00:23.674
move out of this text--
as you know this is not said in

1:00:23.668 --> 1:00:27.928
the text that they too will be--
are going to be taken and

1:00:27.929 --> 1:00:33.039
placed into the bosom of Abraham
where all the blessed dwell.

1:00:33.039 --> 1:00:37.099
Maybe too this is--is it my
wishful thinking?

1:00:37.099 --> 1:00:40.159
I grant you,
it's probably wishful thinking

1:00:40.161 --> 1:00:44.611
but I do have the theology of
redemption behind me that stands

1:00:44.606 --> 1:00:48.686
as uttered by Dante in Canto VII
of Paradise.

1:00:48.690 --> 1:00:53.960
I restated the whole thing in
two minutes, that's not bad.

1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:55.070
Thank you.

1:00:55.070 --> 1:01:00.110
Other questions before we go
back to--please.

1:01:00.110 --> 1:01:02.320
Student:  Can you
comment on the presence of

1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:05.240
Francesca, also in light of this
sexual language that comes out?

1:01:05.239 --> 1:01:09.409
Prof: Yes,
can I comment about Francesca

1:01:09.411 --> 1:01:14.581
in the fact that there is--the
creation is given in sexual

1:01:14.581 --> 1:01:15.491
terms.

1:01:15.489 --> 1:01:21.379
That this is love that opens
itself--opens itself to new

1:01:21.380 --> 1:01:23.310
loves and so on.

1:01:23.309 --> 1:01:29.889
I cannot help but play a little
bit of an etymological game too,

1:01:29.891 --> 1:01:36.061
by the way, because this is the
world of origins and I don't

1:01:36.056 --> 1:01:38.246
want to lose you.

1:01:38.250 --> 1:01:41.060
I know there is only one class
but I don't want to lose you.

1:01:41.059 --> 1:01:44.269
Of course the only--the way in
which Dante's conveying all

1:01:44.268 --> 1:01:47.138
these senses is by playing with
the etymologies,

1:01:47.139 --> 1:01:51.169
because etymology is the
science of the origin of words,

1:01:51.170 --> 1:01:53.330
so let me give you only one.

1:01:53.329 --> 1:01:56.719
I corrected my good friend
Sinclair,

1:01:56.719 --> 1:01:59.419
inseparable from me,
I mean, I'm never going to

1:01:59.418 --> 1:02:01.188
betray him,
but I have to correct him

1:02:01.192 --> 1:02:02.572
because he says
"revealed,"

1:02:02.565 --> 1:02:03.475
that's what he means.

1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:07.850
The eternal love revealed
itself a new love.

1:02:07.849 --> 1:02:13.529
He is missing the whole sexual
language which is exactly the

1:02:13.525 --> 1:02:15.445
reason, thank you.

1:02:15.449 --> 1:02:20.069
That's exactly the reason why I
think that Francesca too can

1:02:20.068 --> 1:02:23.748
arguably be saved,
that's exactly the reason.

1:02:23.750 --> 1:02:28.330
The term he uses is
aperse,

1:02:28.329 --> 1:02:31.039
from the Italian,
in Italian we call it

1:02:31.038 --> 1:02:34.508
aprire,
very close to in English we

1:02:34.514 --> 1:02:39.424
have the word April,
by the way, as an opening of

1:02:39.423 --> 1:02:40.303
spring.

1:02:40.300 --> 1:02:42.760
Just to give you a sense of
etymology,

1:02:42.760 --> 1:02:49.420
it comes from aperire
Latin which really means to

1:02:49.416 --> 1:02:53.266
generate,
to bring to light,

1:02:53.268 --> 1:02:59.268
as a woman brings a birth to
light and life.

1:02:59.268 --> 1:03:02.188
That's really the word,
that's the meaning of the word,

1:03:02.186 --> 1:03:04.936
so it's as sexual and as
productive as it can be.

1:03:04.940 --> 1:03:08.390
Before I go back though to your
question about how is Dante

1:03:08.385 --> 1:03:11.675
going to--
what Dante is saying is that

1:03:11.679 --> 1:03:16.129
creation is the sexual process,
the sexual experience,

1:03:16.134 --> 1:03:18.904
which is exactly what Francesca
also did,

1:03:18.900 --> 1:03:21.980
breaking the law undoubtedly.

1:03:21.980 --> 1:03:24.970
She is in hell,
is she going to be in hell?

1:03:24.969 --> 1:03:28.439
Are we going to understand that
there is a possible continuity

1:03:28.440 --> 1:03:31.680
between what she did in a
physical sense and what Dante is

1:03:31.684 --> 1:03:33.454
doing in a spiritual sense?

1:03:33.449 --> 1:03:37.669
This is the whole point of the
discussion on cosmology and

1:03:37.673 --> 1:03:38.493
creation.

1:03:38.489 --> 1:03:41.179
That there is some kind of
continuity between the two

1:03:41.184 --> 1:03:43.484
modes;
not quite the same thing;

1:03:43.480 --> 1:03:46.580
of course, creation is a
different order of experience.

1:03:46.579 --> 1:03:50.659
There is a very thin line,
it's like a little breath

1:03:50.655 --> 1:03:55.445
of--breath that Francesca can
release at sea--or Beatrice who

1:03:55.452 --> 1:03:57.852
goes on talking endlessly.

1:03:57.849 --> 1:04:01.639
She too, that's the difference
between the two,

1:04:01.639 --> 1:04:03.679
so between the language of
sexuality,

1:04:03.679 --> 1:04:05.799
of physicality in
Inferno,

1:04:05.800 --> 1:04:08.390
and the language of
spirituality here in

1:04:08.387 --> 1:04:11.507
Paradise,
the line that is continuing

1:04:11.505 --> 1:04:15.145
between them and there is a
little difference but there is

1:04:15.146 --> 1:04:17.636
also a possibility of a
continuity,

1:04:17.639 --> 1:04:22.669
that's really exactly the
argument that I would make about

1:04:22.672 --> 1:04:23.292
that.

1:04:23.289 --> 1:04:27.879
Let me though tell you more,
in a historical way,

1:04:27.882 --> 1:04:32.862
so that if you don't agree with
what I said so be it,

1:04:32.858 --> 1:04:34.388
don't worry.

1:04:34.389 --> 1:04:39.409
I don't agree with it
completely on my own but I think

1:04:39.413 --> 1:04:44.253
that this--that's a radical
reading of the notion of

1:04:44.246 --> 1:04:47.656
cosmology and creation in Dante.

1:04:47.659 --> 1:04:50.219
Let me tell you something else
historically.

1:04:50.219 --> 1:04:54.269
Where is Dante taking these
ideas from?

1:04:54.268 --> 1:04:58.298
Whenever you read commentaries
on Dante,

1:04:58.300 --> 1:05:02.260
and I hope that some of you
will go on reading and reading

1:05:02.259 --> 1:05:05.719
also scholars,
thank you, critics--I see that

1:05:05.721 --> 1:05:10.511
nodding is just--
my heart it just gladdens when

1:05:10.510 --> 1:05:11.880
I see that.

1:05:11.880 --> 1:05:15.470
They all tell you--and I
indicated that too that Dante is

1:05:15.465 --> 1:05:19.815
some kind of an Aristotelian and
I was talking about metaphysics,

1:05:19.820 --> 1:05:23.740
how Aristotle calls it first
philosophy,

1:05:23.739 --> 1:05:25.279
Aristotelian terms.

1:05:25.280 --> 1:05:30.070
They never tell you where the
actual sources of Dante are.

1:05:30.070 --> 1:05:36.360
The sources of Dante about
cosmology and cosmography are

1:05:36.355 --> 1:05:38.865
really neo-platonic.

1:05:38.869 --> 1:05:43.919
The idea of creation,
especially one text that I have

1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:47.200
to mention,
this guy who writes the

1:05:47.197 --> 1:05:51.777
Cosmographia called a
twelfth-century man Bernard

1:05:51.782 --> 1:05:54.882
Sylvester,
a Frenchman,

1:05:54.882 --> 1:06:03.102
Bernard Sylvester who writes
Cosmographia,

1:06:03.099 --> 1:06:08.429
twelfth century known as the
author of School of Chartres.

1:06:08.429 --> 1:06:11.779
By the way this text were
available to Dante,

1:06:11.780 --> 1:06:16.810
we have a text of this man,
Cosmographia,

1:06:16.809 --> 1:06:19.019
one copy only because a
Florentine,

1:06:19.018 --> 1:06:23.478
later--he had it in Florence,
by the name of Boccaccio,

1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:26.340
some of you know very well,
he copied it down and

1:06:26.344 --> 1:06:27.544
transmitted to us.

1:06:27.539 --> 1:06:31.149
We know his handwriting because
we have his texts so we know,

1:06:31.150 --> 1:06:35.940
this is 1340,
Dante of course wrote about

1:06:35.940 --> 1:06:38.130
1302,
but clearly that text was

1:06:38.125 --> 1:06:38.905
available then.

1:06:38.909 --> 1:06:42.159
In this text,
Bernard gives an idea of

1:06:42.163 --> 1:06:46.563
creation and cosmological ideas,
physical ideas.

1:06:46.559 --> 1:06:49.309
They had been reading the
Timaeus in France and

1:06:49.306 --> 1:06:51.946
they were always surprised and
wondering what is the

1:06:51.949 --> 1:06:54.949
difference,
how can we go on having Plato

1:06:54.949 --> 1:06:59.739
say one thing about creation and
Genesis saying something else?

1:06:59.739 --> 1:07:04.359
How are we going to connect
these two forms,

1:07:04.360 --> 1:07:09.410
these two sources of tradition
and authority?

1:07:09.409 --> 1:07:16.289
They argue, he goes on talking
about the idea of a pre-existing

1:07:16.291 --> 1:07:18.291
world of matter.

1:07:18.289 --> 1:07:24.129
The natural world and a
malignant materiality and how

1:07:24.125 --> 1:07:29.955
this malignant materiality is
subdued into shape,

1:07:29.960 --> 1:07:34.930
and the subduing into shape is
always sexual language.

1:07:34.929 --> 1:07:38.579
Matura is that which
produces,

1:07:38.579 --> 1:07:43.289
generates, this is the text
that I believe stands behind

1:07:43.289 --> 1:07:48.769
Dante's physical explanation of
a universe which is physical,

1:07:48.768 --> 1:07:52.288
but at the same time it is not
just physical.

1:07:52.289 --> 1:07:56.199
It is also a theory of creation
and it's the theory of creation

1:07:56.199 --> 1:07:58.659
that has unpredictable
possibilities.

1:07:58.659 --> 1:08:01.249
This tells you that things can
be renewed.

1:08:01.250 --> 1:08:04.360
If you stay within the
bound--you see how he criticizes

1:08:04.362 --> 1:08:06.612
the physical conception of the
world.

1:08:06.610 --> 1:08:09.450
If you stay within those
boundaries you can't expect

1:08:09.454 --> 1:08:11.914
anything other than what you
already have.

1:08:11.909 --> 1:08:15.409
You cannot expect anymore evil
or any less evil than what you

1:08:15.405 --> 1:08:16.625
already experience.

1:08:16.630 --> 1:08:20.150
The only idea,
the way in which human beings

1:08:20.149 --> 1:08:24.859
can think about renewal,
can think about change or

1:08:24.856 --> 1:08:30.846
freedom, or origins is only
within the context of creation.

1:08:30.850 --> 1:08:34.680
That's exactly Dante's argument
and that's the profound

1:08:34.680 --> 1:08:38.440
justification for the
distinction between one order of

1:08:38.440 --> 1:08:42.060
experience and a different order
of experience.

1:08:42.060 --> 1:08:45.640
But if this is true,
and it is true for Dante,

1:08:45.640 --> 1:08:49.210
then I have to take also
seriously this idea of--

1:08:49.210 --> 1:08:52.870
this central event of
redemption, which now we

1:08:52.873 --> 1:08:57.193
understand what he takes that to
mean: the moment,

1:08:57.189 --> 1:08:59.789
the experience of the
incarnation.

1:08:59.788 --> 1:09:03.698
This is exactly--it follows--if
he has to--

1:09:03.698 --> 1:09:05.858
if he believes that there is
such a thing as--

1:09:05.859 --> 1:09:09.189
and he does--creation then he
has to believe that there is

1:09:09.194 --> 1:09:13.334
also the idea of recreation,
a second creation because the

1:09:13.328 --> 1:09:18.128
first creation clearly didn't
work out all that well so there

1:09:18.130 --> 1:09:20.450
is this other possibility.

1:09:20.449 --> 1:09:24.719


1:09:24.720 --> 1:09:27.540
Please.

1:09:27.538 --> 1:09:31.388
Student:  I have the
sense that in these lines at the

1:09:31.390 --> 1:09:34.720
beginning of XXIX that we've
been talking about,

1:09:34.720 --> 1:09:40.910
that Dante is very aware of
being on theological thin ice or

1:09:40.911 --> 1:09:44.691
skating close to the danger
line,

1:09:44.689 --> 1:09:53.629
but the idea is the divine love
spills over out into a created

1:09:53.626 --> 1:09:59.776
world so that it can be
reflected back,

1:09:59.779 --> 1:10:05.139
endured, and loved in return in
the way that Paolo and Francesca

1:10:05.135 --> 1:10:06.745
loved each other.

1:10:06.750 --> 1:10:14.340
That's not far from the thought
that before creation God has

1:10:14.341 --> 1:10:22.451
everything but is still a little
lonely and that suggests a kind

1:10:22.447 --> 1:10:27.127
of imperfection,
or at least incompleteness,

1:10:27.127 --> 1:10:29.397
but how can God be incomplete?

1:10:29.399 --> 1:10:36.609
Dante begins this passage by
saying, not to acquire new

1:10:36.609 --> 1:10:39.899
goodness for himself;
this is the

1:10:39.896 --> 1:10:40.406
>

1:10:40.409 --> 1:10:41.879
translation, which cannot be.

1:10:41.880 --> 1:10:43.120
Prof: That's perfect.

1:10:43.118 --> 1:10:49.718
Student:  That he wants
to announce before he offers his

1:10:49.720 --> 1:10:55.900
neo-platonic vision of the
relationship of--that God had to

1:10:55.895 --> 1:10:57.275
creation.

1:10:57.279 --> 1:11:03.029
He wants to signal his
orthodoxy to doubters who might

1:11:03.033 --> 1:11:09.553
hear in this something which is
less than perfectly Christian

1:11:09.548 --> 1:11:16.168
because it comes close to the
idea of a needy God or a God who

1:11:16.171 --> 1:11:21.711
in the way that every lover
needs something,

1:11:21.710 --> 1:11:26.140
and other to love in return,
is in a predicament and

1:11:26.140 --> 1:11:31.090
creation is the solution to the
predicament that God is in

1:11:31.092 --> 1:11:33.702
before the world was made.

1:11:33.698 --> 1:11:38.548
Prof: Okay,
the question is that--well,

1:11:38.551 --> 1:11:44.591
the question is more of a
comment by the maestro here.

1:11:44.590 --> 1:11:49.670
The comment is that Dante at
the beginning of Canto XXIX

1:11:49.667 --> 1:11:53.357
seems to be on a theologically
risky,

1:11:53.359 --> 1:11:56.309
on thin ice,
I am quoting,

1:11:56.305 --> 1:12:00.425
because the notion of a God
who--

1:12:00.430 --> 1:12:05.950
that Dante is really trying to
save his skin,

1:12:05.948 --> 1:12:11.428
as it were, by claiming a kind
of theological orthodoxy when he

1:12:11.434 --> 1:12:16.564
actually knows that the very
notion of creation whereby God

1:12:16.564 --> 1:12:21.944
opens up into new loves,
it seems to imply that before

1:12:21.939 --> 1:12:27.169
creation God was a lonely guy
looking for a partner,

1:12:27.170 --> 1:12:30.670
some kind of Adam,
Adam in the garden replaces all

1:12:30.670 --> 1:12:31.170
that.

1:12:31.170 --> 1:12:32.890
That's really the question.

1:12:32.890 --> 1:12:36.400
I think that's a very
interesting idea,

1:12:36.403 --> 1:12:41.673
of course, but I have to--I
will respond not entirely in a

1:12:41.671 --> 1:12:46.481
funny way, but I hope it will
come out as funny.

1:12:46.479 --> 1:12:50.089
It's really the question that
St.

1:12:50.085 --> 1:12:54.925
Augustine asks in the
Confessions.

1:12:54.930 --> 1:12:58.450
There are always those people
who wonder, because that's

1:12:58.453 --> 1:13:01.663
really what the question is,
what did God do before

1:13:01.657 --> 1:13:02.487
creation?

1:13:02.488 --> 1:13:02.778
St.

1:13:02.782 --> 1:13:07.462
Augustine responds:
he was busy preparing hell to

1:13:07.462 --> 1:13:12.142
people like you who ask these
kinds of questions,

1:13:12.144 --> 1:13:14.684
and think--that's it.

1:13:14.680 --> 1:13:21.150
The more seriously idea is that
indeed creation implies,

1:13:21.149 --> 1:13:23.409
I mean that's a response that I
would offer,

1:13:23.408 --> 1:13:29.098
creation implies a beginning
but this creation has been going

1:13:29.097 --> 1:13:34.977
on forever and that the idea of
the Trinitarian God is really a

1:13:34.976 --> 1:13:38.576
response to this problem you
have.

1:13:38.578 --> 1:13:41.398
You obviously are,
I think, it's not obvious but

1:13:41.399 --> 1:13:43.939
you--
to me it's not obvious I think

1:13:43.939 --> 1:13:47.969
that you are appealing to a
different theological paradigm

1:13:47.970 --> 1:13:52.070
of where the unity of God can be
the loneliness of God.

1:13:52.069 --> 1:13:56.959
The Christian reading of that
unity is that there is always a

1:13:56.962 --> 1:14:01.452
productive, an internal life of
love that always goes on

1:14:01.447 --> 1:14:03.157
producing itself.

1:14:03.158 --> 1:14:06.838
On that note of theological
grandeur, I thank you and I say

1:14:06.844 --> 1:14:08.564
thank you, we'll see you.

1:14:08.560 --> 1:14:09.330
Have a good Thanksgiving.

1:14:09.329 --> 1:14:15.999