WEBVTT

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Prof: With Canto XXVI,
the purgation of the pilgrim is

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completed.

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He has been going through the
various stages of Purgatory:

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from pride,
as you remember,

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to the sin of lust and in
XXVII,

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he crosses a wall of fire,
so that he can be cleansed

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completely of all the stains
that may be residual on his soul

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and approach and enter the
Garden of Eden.

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This is the action that takes
place in XXVII and Canto XXVII

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comes to a close with a passage
that I would like to read to you

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and comment on.

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It's at the end of Canto XXVII
and these are really the last

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words that Virgil will speak.

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We will not hear from him again.

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In fact, from now on,
the pilgrim will be entirely on

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his own.

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There's no dependency on him.

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There is a sort of--actually
very personal moment now that

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starts and we'll see the drama
that goes with time of--

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this attainment of self-mastery
and Dante goes on dramatizing.

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These are the last words that
he speaks from lines 130 on,

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"The temporal fire and the
eternal thou hast seen,"

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meaning Purgatory and Hell
which lasts forever,

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"my son,
and art come to a part where of

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myself I discern no
further."

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This is the limitation of
Virgil's vision.

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This is--from now on he will be
following--even the geometry,

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the arrangement of their
journey will be completely

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reversed.

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Up to now, the pilgrim has been
a disciple, therefore,

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one who follows the vestiges of
the teacher.

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Now the teacher with Statius
will be following Virgil.

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He sees no further.

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And actually I can anticipate
for you the pathos of Virgil's

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departure--
sudden departure--when he,

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the pilgrim,
most wants him and needs him,

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because Beatrice is approaching
and the terror that--

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with a terror that Beatrice
represents for the pilgrim,

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the pilgrim will turn back and
his eyes will never see Virgil

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again.

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Virgil has disappeared an
instant before he vanishes,

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an instant before Beatrice
arrives, as if there's a hiatus.

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Dante is dramatizing the hiatus
between the two guides and the

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two particular stages of his own
self-knowledge and life.

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Let me continue with this,
"Take henceforth thy

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pleasure for guide."

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What an extraordinary line:
"take then henceforth thy

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pleasure for guide."

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This is the poem of desire in
the sense that what pushes the

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pilgrim to go on and impels him
to this journey of discovery and

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self-discovery is really desire.

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Desire is the moving force in
him, but now the language

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changes.

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Now in a sense a certain--the
first part of the journey is

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over and pleasure can become the
guide, the guidance of his own

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pleasure, what he likes.

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That is to say,
in a sense, it's an adumbration

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of free will.

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We'll talk more about the
relationship between actually

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pleasure and happiness,
the way Dante will go on

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dramatizing it and thinking
about in Paradise.

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"Thou hast come forth from
the steep and narrow ways.

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See the sun that shines on thy
brow.

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See the grass,"
near the earthly paradise,

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"See the grass,
the flowers,

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and trees which the ground here
brings forth of itself

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alone."

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It is as, by Dante,
by taking his own pleasure as

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his guidance,
he now has reached an edenic

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place.

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Virgil is speaking of the
pilgrim as if he were speaking

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of the ground that thrives until
the ground, the land produces

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spontaneously.

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Now he's capable at spontaneous
action and spontaneous

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decisions.

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"Till their fair eyes come
rejoicing which weeping may

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come--made me come to thee thou
mayst sit or go among

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them."

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Two details are expressed by
these lines: one is Virgil is

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recapitulating in many ways this
first part of the journey,

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the journey that began in
Inferno I and ends here

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in Purgatorio,
in the Garden of Eden.

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It began in the wilderness and
ends in the Garden.

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This is the first step of--the
first stage of the journey.

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You can now--he remembers,
that's how recapitulates

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"the fair eyes...

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that made me,"
that begged me to come to your

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help when you were lost and
shipwrecked on the wilderness of

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Inferno I;
so now Virgil is going back to

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that.

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The second element is that this
is the exercise:

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"Now thou mayest sit or go
among them."

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Now this is exactly the major
temptation for the pilgrim.

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Is he going to think that the
journey to the Garden of Eden,

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which is a journey ahead,
forward, but a journey back in

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time?

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The Garden of Eden is behind
all of us and yet it lies ahead

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of us.

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The past is really the future.

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He must decide whether he can
go on or sit here.

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It's a first decision.

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Is he going to think that the
journey is the journey to the

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complacencies of the Garden,
to the beauty and attraction of

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the Garden?

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Or is he going to turn,
as he actually will--we can say

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that because we have
Paradise,

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that he writes--into an
anti-pastoral poet.

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That is to say one,
a poet who is always

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questioning the sense of arrival
and is always going on to new

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departures that's really what
the--

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Virgil is telling him.

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Now this is up to you;
you have arrived here;

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you have arrived there where I
am, where Virgil is,

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or you can even go further.

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There's a peculiar language
that resonates behind this kind

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of moral dilemma which is placed
in front of the pilgrim's mind.

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It's called felix culpa,
I don't know if you have--those

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of you who are readers of Milton
may know what I'm talking about.

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Felix culpa,
the idea that the fall of man

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was actually a happy fall,
because it allows human beings

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to even want to go beyond it.

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That's exactly what is
resonating behind this.

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You may sit and therefore turn
into an Adam figure,

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who is going back to the beauty
and innocence which the pilgrim

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doesn't have really.

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He has a wisdom now of the
Garden or you can go on even

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further than that.

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Then here is the final moment
of a circle which now takes over

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for the Purgatorio
itself: "No longer expect

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word or sign from me."

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That's exactly--the teaching of
Virgil has been completed and

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then he ends with:
"Free,

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upright and whole is thy will,
and it were a fault not to act

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on its bidding;
therefore, over thyself I crown

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and miter thee."

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This is the attainment of the
free will so that the whole

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Purgatorio moves between
two poles: the pole of liberty

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which was Cato's object,
the object of his quest through

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the wilderness of the Libyan
desert,

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and now the attainment of the
free will which allows the

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pilgrim to view it as a
condition,

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not just a point of arrival,
but the necessary pre-condition

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for moral life.

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You can never really have an
autonomous moral life only in

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the measure in which you think
you can have the free will.

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Now the pilgrim is his own
responsibility.

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Let me say that once he's under
the guidance of Beatrice the

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issues,
especially when it comes to

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Paradise,
there will be moral problems

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while he is in the Garden of
Eden we are going to look at in

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a moment,
but in Paradise

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aesthetics takes over.

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It's no longer an ethical
problem.

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Dante refers,
you may have heard about recent

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philosophers who think that life
is arranged--

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or knowledge is
arranged--according to stages:

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the aesthetic,
the ethical and then the

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theological.

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Dante reverses this,
the point that seems to be the

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most mature is that dealing with
the aesthetic one,

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which others may view as the
superficial,

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the elementary one,
the one where we are--

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perceptions are going to be
engaged and then at the time of

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disengagement even before you
can get involved and mature in

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ethical experiences.

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Dante changes;
there are no ethical dilemmas

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in Paradise.

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Once you are in Paradise
you can only enjoy and get to

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know the world.

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All the problems are
intellectual problems,

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not moral issues.

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"So free upright and whole
is the will,

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and it were a fall not to act
on its bidding,

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therefore, over thyself I crown
and miter thee."

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This is a kind of secular
coronation ceremony,

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the crown--the royal and the
episcopal--royal and the bishop,

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which is a way of consecrating.

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Virgil acts as a kind of lay
priest,

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consecrating the attainment of
self-mastery in this moment

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which could become a moment of
self-assertion and yet Dante is

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very careful in how he navigates
all of this.

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Now from Canto XXVIII to Canto
XXXIII, which is the end of the

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poem, we come to an area which
is another fragment.

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You already read a kind of
segment which I will call the

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literary segment that--
with Professor Lummus whom I'm

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very grateful to--
covered and explained to you

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and did with you last time.

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That's a literary segment that
goes from XXI to XXVI.

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Now from XXVIII to XXXIII we
have a different segment which

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is--let's call it a pastoral
oasis.

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It's also the representation of
what in classical literature is

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called locus amoenus.

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You may have seen adumbrations
of this even in Limbo.

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That's one of them,
this lovely spot outside of the

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world of history where something
of relaxation can take place and

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it's also which Dante combines
actually with a biblical

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hortus,
enclosed garden,

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the Song of Songs,
for instance,

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or the Garden of Eden hortus
conclusus.

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The interesting thing about
Dante's representation of the

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locus amoenus is it's never
really outside of history;

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it becomes.

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That's the assumption:
you have the garden and you

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have the city.

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This is the dual imagination
whenever life becomes unbearable

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in the city you take off and go
into a villa in the garden

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somewhere and find a relief,
aesthetic relief from the

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hustle--the time-- of hustle and
bustle of the city.

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Dante combines the two.

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There's no easy position
between them,

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in the sense that the Garden of
Eden where he finds himself,

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is going to be the place of--a
very problematical place,

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a place where the pilgrim is
engaged in a self-confrontation.

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He experiences some actually
terrifying moments in the

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encounter with Beatrice,
so the Garden of Eden is

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represented in Canto XXVIII and
I want to read a few passages.

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This is--you see how this
representation is carried out,

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"Eager now to
search,"

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I'm reading from XXVIII,
lines 1 and following,

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and I'll go pretty slowly over
this: "Eager now to search

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within and about the divine
forest green and dense,

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which tempered to my eyes the
new day,

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I left the slope without
waiting longer,

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taking the level very slowly
over the ground which gave

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fragrance on every side."

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It's the classical--this
is--the warehouse of the

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pastoral tradition is found
here, a fragrance;

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there's a running brook,
deep shades,

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the birds seem to be rivaling
human beings,

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introducing songs;
plentitude of the natural order

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and even the innocence of the
natural order,

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with the exception that Dante
comes and though he has been

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cleansed and gone through the
wall of fire to further purify

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him,
he is not the kind of new Adam.

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He carries with him the stains
of experience and the stains of

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history, so there is desire that
acts in him, but let me

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continue.

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"A sweet air that was
without change was striking on

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my brow with the force only of a
gentle breeze,

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by which the fluttering bows
all bent freely to the part

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where the holy mountain throws
its first shadow,

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yet were not so much swayed
from their erectness that the

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little birds in the tops did not
still practice all their arts,

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but, singing,
they greeted the morning hours

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with full gladness among the
leaves,

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which kept such undertone to
their rhymes as gathers from

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branch to branch in the pine
wood of the Chiassi shore when

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Aeolus looses the Sirocco."

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The interesting thing which is
some kind of--

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the poignancy of the
autobiography and--

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is that Dante is imagining the
Garden of Eden as the pine wood

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near Ravenna,
which has completely

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disappeared since then,
but you can imagine how he

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would take the morning walks in
the pine trees around the city

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and on the way to the sea.

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And that, to him,
was the garden:

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this mixture of the ordinary
and the great sublime

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imagination.

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That's what I'm--I think he
wants to convey to us.

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And now he continues,
and I will ask you a question.

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I want you to think about what
I'm going to ask you,

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because you're expected to have
a shock of recognition in the

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next three lines,
and these are the lines in

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English.

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I'll read them in Italian,
another little homage to my

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m'avean trasportato i lenti
passi

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dentro alla selva antica tanto,
ch'io

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non potea rivedere ond'io mi
'ntrassi

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che 'nver sinistra con sue
picciole onde

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And in English is:
"Already my small steps

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had brought me so far within the
ancient wood that I could not

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see the place where I had
entered,

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and lo, my going farther was
prevented by stream with which

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its little waves bent leftwards
the grass that sprang on its

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bank."

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This is my question,
what is this--what do these

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lines remind you of?

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They are meant to remind you of
something.

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The very beginning of
Inferno.

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Very good--which means that
this is now really a new

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departure for him,
which means that the Garden of

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Eden is exactly the wilderness
that we saw--

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that we left behind,
seen from a different

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perspective,
which means that the

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supernatural world is the
natural world with a different--

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to a different lens and
different perspective.

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This is--and is now re-enacting
exactly the drama of

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Inferno I;
it's no shipwreck.

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The mountain has been climbed.

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Remember that he tried to climb
the mountain?

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The mountain has been climbed.

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A new departure is going to
take place.

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Here we go then with this idea
of the--

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that's what I mean the
anti-pastoral Dante:

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the poet who dismisses and
refuses,

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and repudiates all the
temptations of gardens,

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all the temptations of
premature halting,

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premature self-enclosure into
the fiction of gardens.

18:27.390 --> 18:30.710
So this is really the strongest
element that I would have to

18:30.714 --> 18:33.594
point out about what's happening
in Canto XXVIII.

18:33.589 --> 18:34.669
Now what does he see?

18:34.670 --> 18:37.900
"All the waters that are
purest here would seem to have

18:37.895 --> 18:40.025
some defilement in them beside
that,

18:40.029 --> 18:43.919
which conceals nothing,
though it flows quite dark

18:43.923 --> 18:48.483
under the perpetual shade,
which never lets sun or moon

18:48.482 --> 18:49.532
shine there.

18:49.529 --> 18:52.809
With feet I stopped and with
eyes passed over beyond the

18:52.811 --> 18:56.151
streamlet to look at the great
variety of fresh flowering

18:56.153 --> 18:59.613
boughs,
and there appeared to me,"

18:59.605 --> 19:02.475
and the word,
now, is really with a power and

19:02.480 --> 19:06.160
force of an apparition,
another epiphany of beauty and

19:06.163 --> 19:09.403
love to him,
"as appears of a sudden a

19:09.403 --> 19:13.333
thing that for wonder drives
away every other thought,

19:13.328 --> 19:16.898
a lady all alone,
who went singing and culling

19:16.903 --> 19:21.833
flower from flower from which
all her way was painted."

19:21.828 --> 19:24.278
This is Matelda,
as you have read,

19:24.276 --> 19:28.796
the woman who goes dancing,
singing, and gathering flowers.

19:28.798 --> 19:34.748
A true picture a fascination,
aesthetic fascination for him.

19:34.750 --> 19:40.490
To give you the sense of how
some resonance--

19:40.490 --> 19:43.510
and in case you're stilling for
a term that--

19:43.509 --> 19:47.159
the final paper topic you might
want to read--

19:47.160 --> 19:51.680
there is a poem--there is a
traditional poetry which is

19:56.038 --> 20:02.378
The pastourelle was--a
big practitioner is Dante here.

20:02.380 --> 20:03.380
That's what he's writing.

20:03.380 --> 20:07.480
It's the idea of the knight who
goes to the woods or the meadow

20:07.484 --> 20:13.714
and meets a young shepherdess--
gets off--it's very sensual,

20:13.711 --> 20:17.511
and woos--
off the horse and woos this

20:17.506 --> 20:21.836
young woman and usually ends
with a kind of pun on the

20:21.837 --> 20:25.187
promises of the ecstasies of
paradise.

20:25.190 --> 20:28.270
So it's an erotic kind of song.

20:28.269 --> 20:33.939
The other practitioner of this
genre was Dante's own friend,

20:33.942 --> 20:35.772
Guido Cavalcanti.

20:35.769 --> 20:40.179
Dante is using the mode and
really definitely taking his

20:40.183 --> 20:41.793
distance from him.

20:41.789 --> 20:43.409
There is--this is a love scene.

20:43.410 --> 20:46.780
There's nothing of the
overtones of violence--

20:46.779 --> 20:50.859
an erotic violence--that Guido
Cavalcanti had celebrated in his

20:50.861 --> 20:53.561
own version of the
pastourelle,

20:53.559 --> 20:56.779
a genre which is common to them.

20:56.779 --> 20:59.939
This instead is what he says:
"Pray, fair lady,

20:59.942 --> 21:02.612
who warmest thyself in love's
beam."

21:02.608 --> 21:05.638
Now Dante has just come out of
the circle of lust.

21:05.640 --> 21:11.620
He has been cleansing himself
and yet, this is the lingering

21:11.615 --> 21:16.375
trace of his history,
the lingering trace of his

21:16.375 --> 21:19.105
body, and his humanity.

21:19.108 --> 21:24.308
Here he goes through the Garden
of Eden as a fallen man who is

21:24.307 --> 21:29.557
redeemed and not quite redeemed,
certainly not in the restored

21:29.561 --> 21:34.421
or reinstated into the innocence
of the pre-lapsarian garden.

21:34.420 --> 21:37.210
"If I am to believe the
looks which are wont to be

21:37.210 --> 21:39.380
testimony of the heart,' I said
to her,

21:39.380 --> 21:42.340
'may it please thee to come
forward to this stream so near

21:42.339 --> 21:44.209
that I may hear what thou
singest.

21:44.210 --> 21:48.550
Thou makest me recall where and
what was Proserpina,

21:48.548 --> 21:51.918
at the time her mother,"
Ceres,

21:51.920 --> 21:55.190
"lost her and she is
praying."

21:55.190 --> 21:58.230
That's the first--there is a
series of three mythological

21:58.230 --> 21:59.750
images, this is the first.

21:59.750 --> 22:03.150
I think of you as Proserpina,
but it's also a story of

22:03.151 --> 22:04.821
Proserpina, as you know.

22:04.818 --> 22:08.498
Well it's stated in the text:
the story of the young woman

22:08.498 --> 22:12.348
who is walking--
picking flowers on the plains

22:12.345 --> 22:17.805
of Enna in Sicily and then death
comes and takes her away.

22:17.808 --> 22:22.958
It's a kind of death itself,
loving human beings and taking

22:22.959 --> 22:25.089
them, that's one myth.

22:25.088 --> 22:28.328
The second one is "a lady
turns in the dance with feet

22:28.329 --> 22:30.229
close together"
and so on,

22:30.230 --> 22:33.160
and I skip a few lines:
"And I do not believe such

22:33.161 --> 22:35.931
light shone from beneath the
lids of Venus when,

22:35.930 --> 22:38.990
through strange mischance,
she was pierced by her

22:38.986 --> 22:39.746
son."

22:39.750 --> 22:41.740
The second image,
I think, it's more telling.

22:41.740 --> 22:46.340
It's the story of Venus wounded
by the arrows of Cupid and

22:46.338 --> 22:48.678
falling in love with Cupid.

22:48.680 --> 22:52.790
I think it's more telling
because it's Dante's way of

22:52.789 --> 22:54.659
casting,
without going into

22:54.663 --> 22:57.403
psychoanalysis--a
psychoanalytical explanation--

22:57.400 --> 23:02.130
that Dante is casting the
Garden of Eden as also a desire

23:02.132 --> 23:06.692
to return to the state of
infancy of the child with the

23:06.694 --> 23:09.944
mother,
only to understand that this is

23:09.943 --> 23:13.263
really a fantasy that would lead
him nowhere.

23:13.259 --> 23:16.989
And in fact,
the third image is that of an

23:16.989 --> 23:20.809
erotic image again,
but one of distance.

23:20.808 --> 23:22.828
"Three paces the river
kept us apart;

23:22.828 --> 23:24.748
the Hellespont where Xerxes
passed,

23:24.750 --> 23:26.840
a bridle still on all men's
boasts,

23:26.838 --> 23:30.778
did bear more hatred from
Leander for its swelling waters

23:30.778 --> 23:35.208
between Sestos and Abydos,
than that from me because it

23:35.207 --> 23:37.337
did not open then."

23:37.338 --> 23:44.068
So, this barrier between
Matelda and the pilgrim.

23:44.068 --> 23:48.578
Between Dante and the fantasy
of what the Garden of Eden may

23:48.584 --> 23:50.884
be, the mother here is kept.

23:50.880 --> 23:52.670
And Dante has to continue.

23:52.670 --> 23:57.930
He goes on explain--she goes on
explaining what this--

23:57.930 --> 24:03.690
how the mechanics,
so to say, about the Garden of

24:03.690 --> 24:07.890
Eden and then the canto ends
in--

24:07.890 --> 24:11.390
and I'll look at this from
lines 140 and following.

24:11.390 --> 24:15.250
"Those,"
line 140 and following,

24:15.250 --> 24:19.530
"Those who in old times
sang of the age of gold and of

24:19.528 --> 24:22.938
its happy state,
perhaps dreamed on Parnassus of

24:22.941 --> 24:26.781
this place;
here the human root was

24:26.776 --> 24:33.286
innocent, here was lasting
spring and every fruit,

24:33.288 --> 24:38.868
this is the nectar of which
each tells.

24:38.868 --> 24:42.528
I turned then right round to my
poets and saw that they had

24:42.529 --> 24:44.989
heard the last sentence with a
smile.

24:44.990 --> 24:48.310
Then I brought my eyes back to
the fair lady."

24:48.308 --> 24:52.378
From Dante's point of view,
the perplexity that he feels,

24:52.378 --> 24:56.738
is the perplexity of Virgil and
the perplexity of Statius.

24:56.740 --> 25:01.280
They know no more than he does;
he knows no more than they do.

25:01.278 --> 25:05.648
What is the other--the burden
of this passage is that the--

25:05.650 --> 25:11.420
clearly Dante is alluding to
the bucolic quality of this

25:11.415 --> 25:14.485
place,
but it also suggests that in

25:14.488 --> 25:19.048
passing that the ancient--
actually, he says that the

25:19.051 --> 25:24.661
ancient poets prefigured the
Garden of Eden in the fabulous

25:24.656 --> 25:29.196
visions of the golden age and
the Parnassus.

25:29.200 --> 25:34.020
He's establishing a link
between the poetic visions and

25:34.019 --> 25:38.299
this encounter that he has in
the Garden of Eden,

25:38.304 --> 25:42.504
both projections of the poetic
imagination.

25:42.500 --> 25:48.220
So it also means that the
Garden of Eden can be like the

25:48.220 --> 25:52.900
bucolic fantasy of the poets and
Parnassus.

25:52.900 --> 25:56.050
We skip XXIX which is the story
of--

25:56.048 --> 25:59.558
really the world history here
from--

25:59.558 --> 26:05.148
it's an allegory that pageant
of revelation and I will move to

26:05.152 --> 26:09.922
Canto XXX which will take us a
little bit of time.

26:09.920 --> 26:14.690
This is the canto predictably
where--since Beatrice is the one

26:14.689 --> 26:19.139
who is linked to the number
three, this is the canto where

26:19.144 --> 26:21.104
Beatrice will arrive.

26:21.098 --> 26:24.658
And surprisingly,
for those of you who are lovers

26:24.662 --> 26:28.152
of this open or hidden symmetry
in the poem,

26:28.150 --> 26:32.580
Canto XXX of Paradise is
also the canto where Beatrice

26:32.575 --> 26:33.825
will disappear.

26:33.828 --> 26:38.208
Her residence in the poem lasts
for exactly XXXIII cantos.

26:38.210 --> 26:41.270
Clearly it's sort of an
accident: her name is three

26:41.269 --> 26:43.689
times the good;
she's in the Vita nuova

26:43.693 --> 26:44.713
as linked with three.

26:44.710 --> 26:49.910
It's this kind of way of--the
arcane significance of her

26:49.907 --> 26:54.537
presence in the pilgrim's--in
the lover's life.

26:54.538 --> 26:59.408
A canto that describes a double
drama,

26:59.410 --> 27:04.100
the drama of Virgil's
disappearance and the arrival of

27:04.097 --> 27:06.877
Beatrice,
a change of the guard as it

27:06.881 --> 27:09.401
were, in many ways,
but you have two different

27:09.401 --> 27:09.721
moods.

27:09.720 --> 27:17.440
One of elegy for the loss of
Virgil and the other one of

27:17.435 --> 27:23.465
sacred terror at the arrival of
Beatrice.

27:23.470 --> 27:26.430
So it begins,
he hears singing,

27:26.431 --> 27:30.181
line 70: Veni,
sponsa de Libano,

27:30.182 --> 27:34.532
which, of course,
is an echo from the Song of

27:34.525 --> 27:35.705
Songs.

27:35.710 --> 27:39.820
So the erotics of the previous
canto continues now here.

27:39.818 --> 27:45.018
The Song of Songs is
notoriously one of a sublime

27:45.019 --> 27:46.319
love poem.

27:46.318 --> 27:52.668
It continues here in Canto XXX
in anticipation of the arrival

27:52.667 --> 27:54.147
of Beatrice.

27:54.150 --> 27:56.760
"As the blessed shall rise
at the last trump,

27:56.759 --> 27:59.719
each eager for his tomb,
the reclad voice singing

27:59.717 --> 28:02.097
Hallelujah,
there rose up on the divine

28:02.104 --> 28:04.594
chariot at the voice of so great
an elder,

28:04.588 --> 28:07.868
a hundred ministers and
messengers of eternal life,

28:07.868 --> 28:10.638
who all cried:
'Benedictus qui

28:10.644 --> 28:14.874
venis.'"
This is now an allusion,

28:14.872 --> 28:18.612
as maybe your notes will tell
you--

28:18.608 --> 28:23.338
should tell you--to the
greetings of Jesus in the garden

28:23.337 --> 28:26.967
when he comes--
I'm sorry--to Jerusalem and he

28:26.971 --> 28:29.491
says,
'Benedictus qui venit,'

28:29.491 --> 28:32.931
which means that Beatrice--
it means a number of things.

28:32.930 --> 28:35.400
First of all,
a typological connection

28:35.400 --> 28:39.740
between garden and city which we
have already been seeing here.

28:39.740 --> 28:42.520
The garden is not opposed to
the political,

28:42.515 --> 28:45.685
let's say, to the city,
it is the history and the

28:45.686 --> 28:48.856
garden come together in Dante's
imagination.

28:48.858 --> 28:53.068
But there is a further typology
that Beatrice comes the way

28:53.065 --> 28:54.945
Jesus came into history.

28:54.950 --> 28:58.500
Beatrice will come into the
soul of the lover.

28:58.500 --> 29:02.600
So that she is surrounded,
she is wrapped in a kind of

29:02.595 --> 29:06.535
aura of Christological language
and she will become,

29:06.537 --> 29:10.427
let's say, grace;
the way one can experience

29:10.432 --> 29:15.242
grace in the world through this
kind of direct love onto

29:15.240 --> 29:17.600
oneself, so Latin again.

29:17.598 --> 29:20.878
Then, a third image,
and throwing flowers up around,

29:20.880 --> 29:24.300
"Manibus o date lilia
plenis,"

29:24.297 --> 29:26.747
another three phrases in Latin.

29:26.750 --> 29:28.510
He will go on translating a
fourth one.

29:28.509 --> 29:32.219
This is a more interesting
image because it's taken

29:32.221 --> 29:34.971
straight out of the
Aeneid--

29:34.970 --> 29:37.720
of Book VI of Virgil's
Aeneid--

29:37.720 --> 29:42.130
so it's already an homage to
Virgil who is about to

29:42.131 --> 29:43.191
disappear.

29:43.190 --> 29:46.110
Do you see how the dramas here
are sort of interwoven?

29:46.108 --> 29:50.438
The idea of what the garden is
and how is the garden related to

29:50.435 --> 29:52.595
oneself and to one's history.

29:52.598 --> 29:57.158
The idea of--the arrival and
the meaning of Beatrice into the

29:57.156 --> 30:01.406
life of the pilgrim and then
also the loss of Virgil as a

30:01.411 --> 30:04.451
poet and whatever his vision may
be.

30:04.450 --> 30:08.050
Whatever his vision may be is
indicated by these fragments,

30:08.048 --> 30:12.158
the fragments refer to the
premature death that Virgil

30:12.155 --> 30:17.035
celebrates in a very elegiac way
in Book VI of the Aeneid

30:17.038 --> 30:21.838
where Aeneas has gone down into
Hades in order to see the whole

30:21.842 --> 30:23.162
of history.

30:23.160 --> 30:27.470
This is the descent into the
oracles' father and to see

30:27.467 --> 30:32.487
Anchises, that it is the future
that is going to derive and stem

30:32.491 --> 30:33.531
from him.

30:33.529 --> 30:39.459
And Anchises will point out to
him the shade of a young man who

30:39.457 --> 30:43.097
sits on the side,
his name is Marcellus,

30:43.099 --> 30:46.719
who will die too young and then
he will add,

30:46.720 --> 30:50.510
"all throw lilies with
open hands,"

30:50.506 --> 30:55.666
the lily being a funereal
symbol like the chrysanthemums,

30:55.670 --> 30:58.180
for instance,
or some such things in some

30:58.179 --> 30:58.869
cultures.

30:58.868 --> 31:02.868
It's an image of a premature
death which clearly is linked

31:02.874 --> 31:06.694
also to Beatrice,
but who died in a premature

31:06.694 --> 31:11.154
death, but also to Virgil,
because it's the anticipation

31:11.151 --> 31:12.701
of the loss of Virgil.

31:12.700 --> 31:14.300
It's an elegiac way.

31:14.298 --> 31:20.118
It is as if Virgil's vision was
under the aegis of mortality and

31:20.121 --> 31:23.721
finitude,
as if Virgil could never really

31:23.722 --> 31:28.472
be thought of as saved because
his song is a song limited to

31:28.470 --> 31:30.240
the world of death.

31:30.240 --> 31:33.520
Let's see how this continues,
"I once saw at the

31:33.518 --> 31:37.428
beginning of the day the eastern
parts all rosy and the rest of

31:37.426 --> 31:40.956
the sky clear and beautiful and
the sun's face come forth

31:40.957 --> 31:41.527
shaded...

31:41.525 --> 31:42.655
" etc.

31:42.660 --> 31:43.360
"...

31:43.362 --> 31:46.882
a lady appeared to me,"
this is Beatrice,

31:46.875 --> 31:50.695
"girt with olive over a
white veil."

31:50.700 --> 31:53.910
Look at her elegance.

31:53.910 --> 31:59.200
Listen to how he describes the
colors, the fashions.

31:59.200 --> 32:03.700
"Girt with olive over a
white veil, clothed under a

32:03.701 --> 32:07.631
green mantle with the color of a
living flame.

32:07.630 --> 32:11.030
And my spirit,"
I call that the Italian flag by

32:11.027 --> 32:13.327
the way,
the way she seems to be the

32:13.326 --> 32:15.896
red, white and green,
"and my spirit,

32:15.904 --> 32:19.084
which now so long had not been
overcome with awe,

32:19.078 --> 32:22.138
trembling in her presence,
without having more knowledge

32:22.144 --> 32:24.604
by the eyes,
through hidden virtue that came

32:24.596 --> 32:27.876
from her,
felt old love's great

32:27.875 --> 32:29.545
power."

32:29.548 --> 32:33.748
This is a rewriting of the poem
of the autobiography of Dante

32:33.750 --> 32:37.320
that you remember,
reading the Vita nuova.

32:37.318 --> 32:42.078
He's experiencing the presence
of Beatrice through exactly the

32:42.083 --> 32:46.693
kind of effects that she has
over him: the courtly love,

32:46.690 --> 32:49.240
the sweet new style,
the trembling,

32:49.240 --> 32:50.670
the inability to speak.

32:50.670 --> 32:53.830
"As soon as the lofty
virtue smote on my sight which

32:53.826 --> 32:57.036
already had pierced me before I
was out of my boyhood,

32:57.038 --> 33:00.178
I turned to the left with the
confidence of a little child

33:00.179 --> 33:03.429
that runs to his mother when
he's afraid or in distress,

33:03.430 --> 33:06.170
to say to Virgil:
'Not a drop of blood is left in

33:06.174 --> 33:07.724
me that does not tremble.

33:07.720 --> 33:11.360
I know the marks of the ancient
flame."

33:11.358 --> 33:18.028
He's scared and turns to Virgil
and is about to say,

33:18.028 --> 33:22.288
and will say the famous lines,
"I know the marks of the

33:22.290 --> 33:25.830
ancient flame,"
which is a translation of the

33:25.829 --> 33:29.589
words Dido will speak when she
meets Aeneas in Hades:

33:29.586 --> 33:33.126
"I know the marks of the
ancient flame,"

33:33.125 --> 33:36.735
another image of death and
mortality taken from the

33:36.736 --> 33:38.466
Aeneid.

33:38.470 --> 33:43.750
Dante's linking Virgil with
that kind of metaphor and that

33:43.752 --> 33:46.722
sort of limitation of passion.

33:46.720 --> 33:49.840
"But Virgil had left us
bereft of him,

33:49.838 --> 33:52.608
Virgil sweetest father,
Virgil to whom I gave myself

33:52.612 --> 33:55.212
for my salvation,
nor did all the ancient mother

33:55.209 --> 33:58.179
lost avail my cheeks washed with
dew that they should not be

33:58.178 --> 33:59.888
stained again with tears."

33:59.890 --> 34:03.820
These are Beatrice's first
words: "Dante,

34:03.819 --> 34:08.099
because Virgil leaves thee weep
not, weep not yet,

34:08.101 --> 34:11.771
for thou must weep for another
sword.'

34:11.768 --> 34:14.088
Like an admiral who goes to
poop and prow to see the men

34:14.090 --> 34:16.500
that serve on the other ships
and to hearten them in their

34:16.496 --> 34:18.736
work,
so on the left side of the

34:18.739 --> 34:21.889
car--when I turned at the sound
of my name,

34:21.889 --> 34:25.139
which is noted here of
necessity--I saw the lady who

34:25.139 --> 34:28.519
first appeared to me veiled
under the angelic festival

34:28.516 --> 34:31.316
direct her eyes on me beyond the
stream.

34:31.320 --> 34:33.490
Already the veil that fell from
her head,

34:33.489 --> 34:36.169
and circled with Minerva's
leaves, did not let her be

34:36.166 --> 34:38.776
plainly seen,
royally, still stern in her

34:38.784 --> 34:41.274
bearing,
she continued like one who

34:41.266 --> 34:44.336
while he speaks holds back his
hottest words:

34:44.342 --> 34:49.012
'Look at me well;
I am, I am indeed Beatrice.

34:49.010 --> 34:51.230
How durst thou approach the
mountain?

34:51.230 --> 34:56.100
Didst thou not know that here
man is happy?"

34:56.099 --> 35:02.119
Well a number of things
here--Virgil has disappeared.

35:02.119 --> 35:05.099
Dante now is alone,
so that's what I call the

35:05.099 --> 35:07.469
self-confrontation with his
past.

35:07.469 --> 35:08.909
Who is Beatrice?

35:08.909 --> 35:13.969
How am I going to account for
my failings to Beatrice?

35:13.969 --> 35:17.079
What is she going to expect of
me?

35:17.079 --> 35:20.679
She's harsh,
the harsh language of love,

35:20.679 --> 35:23.519
to the point if I may be a
little bit too--

35:23.518 --> 35:26.838
without really lessening the
intensity of this passage,

35:26.840 --> 35:31.130
this passage is pretty intense,
but I feel that I have to tell

35:31.132 --> 35:33.702
you a little--
to distract you a little bit

35:33.702 --> 35:34.582
for ten seconds.

35:34.579 --> 35:41.549
Borges has written about this
passage, a beautiful essay on

35:41.552 --> 35:47.442
this scene and he says,
this is the only time that

35:47.443 --> 35:51.293
Dante really made a mistake.

35:51.289 --> 35:55.729
Because if Beatrice spoke to me
the way he spoke--

35:55.730 --> 35:58.620
she spoke to Virgil--to
Dante--I'm sorry--

35:58.619 --> 36:02.399
I would have said to her,
look if that's the way you feel

36:02.396 --> 36:06.596
I'm going to go right back and--
but Dante won't say that.

36:06.599 --> 36:11.279
This is a contemporary
visionary like Borges,

36:11.275 --> 36:12.545
not Dante.

36:12.550 --> 36:15.970
What we are told is that this
is the first,

36:15.965 --> 36:20.275
and only, time in the poem that
Dante's name is heard.

36:20.275 --> 36:21.085
Dante.

36:21.090 --> 36:24.000
She will never call him Dante
again and he has never been

36:23.996 --> 36:25.136
called Dante before.

36:25.139 --> 36:28.459
In other words,
this the point where the poem,

36:28.460 --> 36:31.980
from the epic that it has been,
the epic of desire,

36:31.980 --> 36:34.770
the epic of hope,
the pilgrim,

36:34.773 --> 36:40.403
lost the longing and memory,
between hope and memory,

36:40.400 --> 36:45.220
the poem of justice,
now it becomes an autobiography.

36:45.219 --> 36:47.949
Now it is his own story.

36:47.949 --> 36:51.049
There is a shift in genre:
from an epic story:

36:51.048 --> 36:53.668
from the loss of Virgil,
the epic poet,

36:53.666 --> 36:55.936
to an autobiographical focus.

36:55.940 --> 36:58.550
Dante, this is you,
the specificity and

36:58.550 --> 37:01.230
irreducibility of his own
experience.

37:01.230 --> 37:07.090
Dante, she says,
and he will add that his name

37:07.085 --> 37:12.025
is here registered out of
necessity.

37:12.030 --> 37:14.710
And what is the necessity that
he has?

37:14.710 --> 37:17.800
What's the necessity about
speaking of oneself?

37:17.800 --> 37:20.660
Why would one go on speaking of
oneself?

37:20.659 --> 37:27.049
One speaks of oneself because
one wants to be exemplary to

37:27.050 --> 37:28.060
others.

37:28.059 --> 37:32.499
One believes that what one has
experienced is crucial for

37:32.501 --> 37:37.501
somebody else's self knowledge,
somebody else's experience or

37:37.498 --> 37:41.618
one wants to exempt vituperation
from his own name.

37:41.619 --> 37:43.989
It's--I'm paraphrasing Dante's
words,

37:43.989 --> 37:48.359
and the way he registers them
in this philosophical text that

37:48.362 --> 37:50.642
he writes called,
the Banquet,

37:50.635 --> 37:52.175
where he speaks of-- about
himself.

37:52.179 --> 37:54.679
And he says,
there are two people who have

37:54.677 --> 37:57.357
spoken about themselves in
exemplary ways.

37:57.360 --> 37:59.580
One is Augustine in the
Confessions,

37:59.579 --> 38:02.779
a book that I have asked you
repeatedly to read and I have

38:02.780 --> 38:04.990
read from,
and the other one is Boethius

38:04.987 --> 38:08.247
that I have alluded to in The
Consolation of Philosophy.

38:08.250 --> 38:11.530
The philosopher,
who is in jail,

38:11.528 --> 38:17.768
seeks to find comfort to the
imputations of criminal conduct

38:17.771 --> 38:21.241
laid on him,
by thinking about philosophy

38:21.239 --> 38:23.739
and talking about himself,
and whereas,

38:23.742 --> 38:26.662
Augustine, of course,
is discussing his own

38:26.657 --> 38:27.627
conversion.

38:27.630 --> 38:32.100
The idea of the necessity is
both--Dante is alluding to two

38:32.103 --> 38:36.393
autobiographical texts,
both of which make it

38:36.385 --> 38:40.285
the--talking about oneself
indeed,

38:40.289 --> 38:43.059
as he calls it, a necessity.

38:43.059 --> 38:48.589
So this now will continue with
Canto XXX.

38:48.590 --> 38:53.490
The first thing that she will
do--Beatrice will do--and we

38:53.485 --> 38:55.285
turn to Canto XXXI.

38:55.289 --> 39:01.019
There's an account--and Canto
XXX continues with the story of

39:01.016 --> 39:07.026
his failures when she died as
told in the Vita nuova,

39:07.030 --> 39:10.920
he went on looking for someone
who could replace Beatrice.

39:10.920 --> 39:15.170
And now Dante goes on
asking--actually indulging in a

39:15.166 --> 39:17.886
confession,
literally an Augustinian

39:17.887 --> 39:21.567
moment, another part of the
autobiographical moment and a

39:21.572 --> 39:27.202
confessional form and this is--
let me just read a few lines

39:27.195 --> 39:30.215
here, before we move on.

39:30.219 --> 39:34.179
"Oh thou that art on that
side of the sacred river,' she

39:34.179 --> 39:36.929
began again,
turning against me the point of

39:36.932 --> 39:40.462
her speech which even with the
edge that seemed sharp to me and

39:40.460 --> 39:44.160
continuing without pause,
'say, say if this is true;

39:44.159 --> 39:47.959
to such an accusation thy
confession must needs be

39:47.963 --> 39:48.743
joined.'

39:48.739 --> 39:52.529
My faculties were so confounded
that my voice began and was

39:52.534 --> 39:55.614
spent before it was released
from its organs.

39:55.610 --> 39:59.160
She forebore a little,
then said, 'What thinkest

39:59.164 --> 40:02.754
thou?"--
A phrase that should remind

40:02.753 --> 40:08.573
you--I know that it's too little
and I will not too demanding,

40:08.570 --> 40:13.200
but it should remind you of the
fact that this is Francesca's,

40:13.199 --> 40:18.089
this is what Dante was asking
Francesca in Canto 5.

40:18.090 --> 40:21.160
And now it's Beatrice--the
roles are inverted--

40:21.159 --> 40:25.949
who is asking Dante to resume
as if it were that confession of

40:25.945 --> 40:29.945
a failing that Francesca had
undergone in Canto V of

40:29.949 --> 40:31.439
Inferno.

40:31.440 --> 40:33.600
"What thinkest thou?

40:33.599 --> 40:37.489
Answer me, for the sad memories
are not yet destroyed in thee by

40:37.487 --> 40:38.287
the water.'

40:38.289 --> 40:41.719
Confusion and fear mingled
together drove forth from my

40:41.724 --> 40:45.484
mouth a Yes such that to hear it
there was need of sight.

40:45.480 --> 40:48.690
As a crossbow shot with too
great strain breaks the

40:48.686 --> 40:51.996
cord,"
let me just go on.

40:52.000 --> 40:54.270
"After,"
with line 36,

40:54.268 --> 40:56.368
"After heaving a bitter
sigh,

40:56.369 --> 40:59.929
I had--I had hardly the voice
to answer and the lips shaped it

40:59.929 --> 41:02.279
with difficulty;
weeping, I said:

41:02.282 --> 41:06.842
'Present things with their
false pleasure turned my steps

41:06.844 --> 41:09.944
as soon as your face was
hid."

41:09.940 --> 41:14.250
The--he's alluding,
exactly as he did in the

41:14.251 --> 41:19.071
Vita nuova,
to his change of heart as soon

41:19.065 --> 41:23.475
as Beatrice died,
and now she continues.

41:23.480 --> 41:25.540
"And she:
'Hadst thou kept silence or

41:25.541 --> 41:28.881
denied what thou confessest,
thy fault would be not less

41:28.884 --> 41:31.334
plain, by such a judge as it
known,

41:31.329 --> 41:35.559
but when from a man's own cheek
breaks forth condemnation of his

41:35.559 --> 41:37.879
sin,
in our court the wheel turns

41:37.880 --> 41:39.400
back against the edge.

41:39.400 --> 41:42.140
Nevertheless,
in order that thou mayst now

41:42.135 --> 41:46.735
bear the shame of thy wandering,
and another time hearing the

41:46.739 --> 41:48.369
Sirens,
be stronger,

41:48.371 --> 41:51.851
lay aside the sowing of tears,
and hearken;

41:51.849 --> 41:55.019
so shalt thou hear how my
buried flesh should have

41:55.018 --> 41:56.958
directed thee the other way.

41:56.960 --> 42:00.100
Never did nature or art set
before thee beauty so great as

42:00.097 --> 42:01.747
the fair members,"
etc.

42:01.750 --> 42:08.610
The passage is extraordinary
because it helps us to gloss

42:08.612 --> 42:15.352
retrospectively what was a
fairly mysterious allegory in

42:15.353 --> 42:17.073
Purgatory.

42:17.070 --> 42:21.040
You remember,
where Dante meets the siren,

42:21.043 --> 42:25.893
or dreams of the siren and then
a lady appeared?

42:25.889 --> 42:30.579
The siren was an allegory of a
temptation, an erotic

42:30.583 --> 42:31.783
temptation.

42:31.780 --> 42:36.490
Someone who wants to lure the
pilgrim and promises happiness.

42:36.487 --> 42:37.347
Remember?

42:37.349 --> 42:42.319
I'm going to make you happy,
you need to go nowhere else and

42:42.320 --> 42:45.590
now--
and then there was also the

42:45.592 --> 42:49.072
appearance of a mysterious
woman,

42:49.070 --> 42:56.670
an equally mysterious woman who
manages to send away the siren.

42:56.670 --> 43:02.360
She wakes up the pilgrim and
the journey there can continue.

43:02.360 --> 43:03.860
As you recall,
we are saying,

43:03.855 --> 43:06.365
well we don't know who this
mysterious woman is,

43:06.365 --> 43:08.445
though there are a number of
hints.

43:08.449 --> 43:12.259
I had read this part of the
poem before you had,

43:12.257 --> 43:14.687
probably, and it's Beatrice.

43:14.690 --> 43:18.240
Beatrice was a kind of--an
allegory of the confrontation of

43:18.242 --> 43:20.392
two women,
the siren on the one hand,

43:20.385 --> 43:22.925
and on the other hand,
this unknown,

43:22.929 --> 43:25.029
mysterious Beatrice.

43:25.030 --> 43:28.730
Now this scene just makes it
clear,

43:28.730 --> 43:32.510
because what Beatrice says,
you have to make a confession

43:32.510 --> 43:34.720
in case shame,
"Now bear the shame of thy

43:34.722 --> 43:36.922
wanderings and another time,
hearing the Sirens,

43:36.920 --> 43:39.450
be stronger,
lay aside the sowing of tears

43:39.445 --> 43:41.505
and hearken;
so shalt thou hear how my

43:41.507 --> 43:42.917
buried flesh,"
and so on.

43:42.920 --> 43:47.850
She is now glossing the scene
of the siren that appeared in

43:47.853 --> 43:51.003
Canto XIX, but there is more to
it.

43:51.000 --> 43:55.380
There is a little phrase that
Dante's using,

43:55.380 --> 43:58.370
or Beatrice is using for him:
"another time,"

43:58.365 --> 44:01.845
when you hear the siren,
which means that the siren is

44:01.851 --> 44:04.531
not just the encounter with the
siren.

44:04.530 --> 44:08.600
It's not just an event that
happened in the past.

44:08.599 --> 44:12.289
It can happen all over again.

44:12.289 --> 44:12.989
"Another time."

44:12.989 --> 44:15.099
In other words,
it can still happen in the

44:15.096 --> 44:17.306
future,
which means that Dante's

44:17.309 --> 44:19.779
conversion,
which is really what this poem

44:19.775 --> 44:22.775
has been telling us--
especially now that it has

44:22.775 --> 44:26.215
reached this kind of
autobiographical quality--

44:26.219 --> 44:31.039
is not over and done with,
that it is a conversion.

44:31.039 --> 44:35.199
It has to be understood as an
ongoing journey and that the

44:35.202 --> 44:38.492
future itself is fraught with
temptations,

44:38.489 --> 44:42.609
just as much as it was fraught
with temptations in the past.

44:42.610 --> 44:48.190
What Dante is changing is the
Augustinian idea of a conversion

44:48.186 --> 44:52.846
that takes place once and for
all and is making--

44:52.849 --> 44:56.549
it is replacing that paradigm
with a different paradigm,

44:56.550 --> 45:00.790
a paradigm of a conversion in
its openness to time,

45:00.789 --> 45:04.069
with the idea that it is an
ongoing process.

45:04.070 --> 45:07.960
You have--look what the poetic
technique--

45:07.960 --> 45:11.570
as Dante is remembering a scene
of the past and glossing that,

45:11.570 --> 45:13.510
the encounter,
the temptation of the siren

45:13.514 --> 45:17.024
moved away,
dispelled by the arrival of

45:17.018 --> 45:18.068
Beatrice.

45:18.070 --> 45:21.040
Now Beatrice is talking once
again about the siren,

45:21.039 --> 45:22.909
"another time,"
meaning,

45:22.909 --> 45:25.739
I know who she was in Canto XIX
of--

45:25.739 --> 45:29.369
in the dream of Canto XIX--she
may come back again.

45:29.369 --> 45:32.229
In other words,
once again, this is the

45:32.228 --> 45:35.238
anti-pastoral imagination of the
poet.

45:35.239 --> 45:39.299
Do not believe that you can
ever stop on the way.

45:39.300 --> 45:43.580
Do not ever believe that there
are truths that are going to be

45:43.581 --> 45:46.041
unchallenged or untested in
time.

45:46.039 --> 45:51.109
I think that this is a way of
truly casting Dante for what he

45:51.106 --> 45:54.646
is;
the poet of--open to the power

45:54.652 --> 46:00.792
of the future and drawn to the
idea that the future is still

46:00.793 --> 46:03.503
part of his experience.

46:03.500 --> 46:06.560
By the way, he goes on,
which would really takes us--

46:06.559 --> 46:10.799
but that's the essential point,
"Truly that thou,"

46:10.802 --> 46:13.292
this is line 55,
"thou oughtest,

46:13.293 --> 46:15.603
at the first shaft of deceptive
things,

46:15.599 --> 46:18.849
to have risen up after me who
was such no longer.

46:18.849 --> 46:22.899
No young girl or other vanity
of such brief worth should have

46:22.902 --> 46:26.012
bent thy wings downward to await
more shots.

46:26.010 --> 46:29.060
A young chick waits for two or
three, but in vain is the net

46:29.056 --> 46:30.396
spread,"
and so on.

46:30.400 --> 46:33.820
This is another,
literally, the allusion to the

46:33.818 --> 46:38.798
poems that Dante wrote for what
he called the pargoletta,

46:38.800 --> 46:45.260
the little--the young woman
that Beatrice seems to be--

46:45.264 --> 46:47.184
remind him of.

46:47.179 --> 46:54.409
Now we come to Canto XXXIII,
the end of Purgatory--

46:54.409 --> 46:59.889
the end of Purgatory,
where I really want to focus on

46:59.885 --> 47:03.685
one image and one image in
particular,

47:03.690 --> 47:11.130
which is the image of a
prophecy that Beatrice will

47:11.128 --> 47:12.168
make.

47:12.170 --> 47:16.430
Beatrice--we are at the end of
time--Purgatory,

47:16.425 --> 47:20.955
and he goes on--I'm sorry,
she goes on promising a

47:20.958 --> 47:23.548
deliverer who will come.

47:23.550 --> 47:28.380
The argument now is no longer
about Dante himself;

47:28.380 --> 47:30.650
it's an argument about history.

47:30.650 --> 47:34.380
Is there a deliverance for
history?

47:34.380 --> 47:39.650
Is it possible for the whole
human family to go back to a

47:39.646 --> 47:42.776
condition that,
at least if not the Garden of

47:42.775 --> 47:45.415
Eden as such,
from the point of view which we

47:45.416 --> 47:48.896
can see,
at least the towers of the true

47:48.900 --> 47:51.540
city,
that's the way Dante calls it

47:51.538 --> 47:54.348
in the political tract
Monarchia.

47:54.349 --> 47:57.999
He's talking about a figure
that may enter history--

47:58.000 --> 47:59.970
that will enter history at the
end of time,

47:59.969 --> 48:04.209
that's why I stress that
dramatically the poem is

48:04.206 --> 48:08.176
literally poised at the outer
edge of time.

48:08.179 --> 48:10.179
There's not time,
when we are going to

48:10.184 --> 48:13.624
Paradise once again,
so let me tell you what

48:13.619 --> 48:17.079
this--and we'll try to explain
it for you,

48:17.079 --> 48:20.499
lines 30 and following:
"And she said to me:

48:20.503 --> 48:24.073
'From fear and shame I would
have thee free thyself

48:24.068 --> 48:28.128
henceforth,
that thou mayst no longer speak

48:28.128 --> 48:30.198
like one that dreams.

48:30.199 --> 48:33.779
Know that the vessel,"
she is tough.

48:33.780 --> 48:40.520
The way she is attacking him,
she will be the teacher from

48:40.516 --> 48:43.986
now on,
"Know that the vessel the

48:43.985 --> 48:48.555
serpent broke was and is not,
but let him that has the blame

48:48.559 --> 48:51.949
be assured that God's vengeance
fears no sop.

48:51.949 --> 48:56.489
Not for all the time shall the
eagle," probably the eagle

48:56.485 --> 48:59.365
of the empire,
"be without heir that left

48:59.367 --> 49:02.077
its feathers on the car so that
it became monster,

49:02.079 --> 49:05.619
and then prey;
for I see assuredly,

49:05.621 --> 49:10.341
and therefore tell of it,
stars already near,

49:10.335 --> 49:14.495
to give us the time,
secure from all check and

49:14.503 --> 49:17.603
hindrance,
when a five hundred,

49:17.597 --> 49:21.367
ten and five,
one sent from God,

49:21.369 --> 49:26.299
shall slay the thievish woman
and the giant who sins with her.

49:26.300 --> 49:29.110
And perhaps my dark tale,
like Themis and the Sphinx,

49:29.112 --> 49:31.552
persuades thee less because,
in their fashion,

49:31.545 --> 49:34.925
it clouds thy mind;
but soon the facts shall be the

49:34.929 --> 49:39.139
Naiads that will solve this hard
enigma without loss of flocks

49:39.137 --> 49:40.377
and corn."

49:40.380 --> 49:44.810
She delivers an enigma--an
enigmatic prophecy.

49:44.809 --> 49:48.039
Enigma is a word that obviously
means mystery,

49:48.038 --> 49:50.548
but it's also linked to
allegory.

49:50.550 --> 49:54.190
You talk about irony, allegory;
they're all tropes that

49:54.190 --> 49:58.820
grammarians place under the same
general subdivision.

49:58.820 --> 50:00.840
It's an enigma.

50:00.840 --> 50:02.070
It's mysterious.

50:02.070 --> 50:06.140
It's not quite clear,
and the lack of clarity only

50:06.135 --> 50:08.865
adds, I think,
to the fear and the

50:08.873 --> 50:12.693
speculations of course about
what this is.

50:12.690 --> 50:15.850
It's a numerical symbol,
which he says,

50:15.853 --> 50:18.853
it's a five hundred,
ten and five.

50:18.849 --> 50:21.819
That's the way it's written,
five hundred,

50:21.820 --> 50:23.270
ten and five:
DXV.

50:23.268 --> 50:27.458
And you do know that
numbers--we have been talking a

50:27.456 --> 50:32.226
little bit about this,
numbers viewed as containing

50:32.233 --> 50:37.973
medieval numerical symbolism
views numbers as containing the

50:37.974 --> 50:42.454
essence of the secret actually
of creation.

50:42.449 --> 50:45.279
They would go writing--this is
Isidore of Seville,

50:45.277 --> 50:47.637
goes on writing,
take the number away from

50:47.644 --> 50:50.594
things and things will perish,
will fall apart.

50:50.590 --> 50:55.780
It's a Pythagorean idea,
what keeps all things together

50:55.777 --> 51:00.867
is just a sense of--call it
musical rhythmic numerical

51:00.869 --> 51:02.119
ordering.

51:02.119 --> 51:06.449
Of course, there are--a great
other number that maybe

51:06.449 --> 51:10.199
everybody knows is 666,
which is the number of

51:10.197 --> 51:11.527
anti-Christ.

51:11.530 --> 51:16.440
Dante's writing a five hundred,
one, and five--what on earth

51:16.443 --> 51:17.613
could it be?

51:17.610 --> 51:21.000
Oh the speculations I
could--they're hilarious,

51:21.003 --> 51:24.033
some of the spec--what they
could mean.

51:24.030 --> 51:27.780
There are those who believe,
well it really refers to the

51:27.784 --> 51:28.594
year 1315.

51:28.590 --> 51:31.880
We have no reason to believe
that is the case,

51:31.884 --> 51:34.964
because it's 800,
the year of Charlemagne's

51:34.960 --> 51:39.280
declaring the Holy Roman Empire
and 515 gives you 1315.

51:39.280 --> 51:41.950
So Dante's really thinking
about an imminent event in his

51:41.954 --> 51:42.484
own time.

51:42.480 --> 51:45.710
There's nothing in the text
that would allow us to see this

51:45.710 --> 51:47.660
and allow us to make it
credible.

51:47.659 --> 51:48.769
So what is it?

51:48.768 --> 51:52.048
Actually, it was found that the
way--

51:52.050 --> 51:54.520
the best way to describe it is
really in--

51:54.518 --> 52:00.598
written in DXV in five hundred,
ten,

52:00.599 --> 52:05.169
and five that this is--the best
way to try to make any sense of

52:05.166 --> 52:08.606
this prophecy and of course,
another hilarious

52:08.614 --> 52:12.184
interpretation that I just
regale to you for your own

52:12.177 --> 52:15.327
temporary relaxation this was
immediately--

52:15.329 --> 52:21.099
became the D V X.

52:21.099 --> 52:24.129
Between 1923 and 1943,
this was a prophecy of

52:24.130 --> 52:27.920
Mussolini, of all people,
who would come and deliver the

52:27.920 --> 52:28.610
world.

52:28.610 --> 52:32.410
Another ridiculous--of
course--interpretation.

52:32.409 --> 52:35.059
But it was found by some very
good--

52:35.059 --> 52:38.179
by two, simultaneously,
it's amazing--

52:38.179 --> 52:40.859
by two historians,
one actually a historian and

52:40.858 --> 52:43.648
one a literary historian,
and therefore they took two

52:43.654 --> 52:46.154
different views,
that in the medieval

52:46.146 --> 52:49.406
illustrations,
there is a moment--By the way,

52:49.407 --> 52:52.587
let me just preamble this,
they found it in medieval

52:52.588 --> 52:54.118
illustrations of the mass.

52:54.119 --> 52:58.229
There's a moment in the mass,
where there's a so-called

52:58.231 --> 53:02.821
antiphonal prayer,
the idea that Christ is coming

53:02.820 --> 53:09.000
sacramentally and they have 'it
is truly right and just' and in

53:09.001 --> 53:13.191
Latin veridignum et justus
est,

53:13.190 --> 53:17.590
and it's always written like
this and they explain V and X,

53:17.590 --> 53:20.390
a cross that joins the human
and the divine.

53:20.389 --> 53:25.189
So that really the prayer,
or the enigma of Beatrice,

53:25.186 --> 53:28.596
is for the apocalyptic end of
time.

53:28.599 --> 53:32.789
The time when Christ will
return to the earth,

53:32.789 --> 53:36.139
the first time he came,
first of all,

53:36.141 --> 53:40.611
as a human being five,
ten and five hundred.

53:40.610 --> 53:44.950
The second time he will come
first in his divinity so five

53:44.947 --> 53:48.827
hundred, ten and five:
the divinity and the humanity

53:48.829 --> 53:51.189
second, the second element.

53:51.190 --> 53:55.420
The two, humanity and divinity
join together by the X of the

53:55.416 --> 53:55.986
cross.

53:55.989 --> 54:00.119
A great discovery,
a number of infinite problems

54:00.119 --> 54:01.349
that I have.

54:01.349 --> 54:05.069
I hope I have--let me--bear
with me for a couple of minutes

54:05.070 --> 54:07.700
so that I can tell you more
about this.

54:07.699 --> 54:11.109
If this is an apocalyptic
symbol, that is to say,

54:11.110 --> 54:13.280
you understand what we mean by
an apocalyptic symbol,

54:13.280 --> 54:17.000
apocalyptic prophecy,
that for prophecy apocalypse

54:16.996 --> 54:20.936
means for visionary coming from
the Apocalypse of St.

54:20.940 --> 54:24.960
John, and implying that Dante
believes in some kind of

54:24.960 --> 54:27.010
imminent end of time.

54:27.010 --> 54:30.100
History is coming to an end.

54:30.099 --> 54:33.889
If he believed in this,
and this is to be understood as

54:33.894 --> 54:37.554
an apocalyptic symbol of an
imminent end of time,

54:37.550 --> 54:41.180
this would make Dante what is
called a Joachist,

54:41.179 --> 54:43.069
and I have to explain to you
who this man is.

54:43.070 --> 54:48.070
There's a man by the name of
Joachim of Flora who was--

54:48.070 --> 54:50.600
and we'll see him in
Paradise,

54:50.599 --> 54:55.299
Joachim of Flora,
who had a theory of history in

54:55.295 --> 55:00.385
a kind of tripartite structure,
Joachim of Flora.

55:00.389 --> 55:06.539
The idea is that history is
patterned on the Trinity,

55:06.539 --> 55:10.309
so there is an age of the
father which roughly goes from

55:10.306 --> 55:13.726
creation to the time of the
biblical patriarchs.

55:13.730 --> 55:17.590
Then there is the age of the
son that goes from the time of

55:17.586 --> 55:20.776
the incarnation to roughly 1260,
his own time.

55:20.780 --> 55:23.590
This is Joachim of Flora and
then there's in the age of the

55:23.585 --> 55:27.175
spirit,
that goes from the time of

55:27.177 --> 55:32.437
1260--with thanks to the
fraternal orders,

55:32.440 --> 55:37.470
all structures and all
institutions will disappear and

55:37.465 --> 55:43.245
mankind will experience a time
of brotherhood and chastity.

55:43.250 --> 55:45.990
There will be no marriages,
there will be no state,

55:45.989 --> 55:50.149
there will be nothing,
and I say California is already

55:50.148 --> 55:54.388
anticipated and seen by this
great figure of Joachim of

55:54.385 --> 55:55.165
Flora.

55:55.170 --> 55:59.900
If Dante were a Joachist that
would create a number of

55:59.898 --> 56:03.198
problems,
because what I have just been

56:03.199 --> 56:07.579
describing to you was viewed as
a most heretical theory of

56:07.583 --> 56:08.433
history.

56:08.429 --> 56:09.919
Why was it heretical?

56:09.920 --> 56:12.570
Because, in effect,
Joachim of Flora was,

56:12.570 --> 56:15.730
with this theory of an age of
the father,

56:15.730 --> 56:18.470
the age of the son,
and the age of the spirit--

56:18.469 --> 56:22.319
was in effect undoing the unity
of the Trinity.

56:22.320 --> 56:24.350
That is to say,
the Trinity is no longer

56:24.353 --> 56:25.713
simultaneously together.

56:25.710 --> 56:30.220
He's dividing the Trinity into
three distinct parts,

56:30.219 --> 56:33.569
and no less a great theologian
of Dante's own time,

56:33.570 --> 56:35.750
and whom Dante will encounter
very soon in Paradise,

56:35.750 --> 56:38.760
and they are going to discuss
Joachim of Flora together,

56:38.760 --> 56:42.480
Bonaventure,
will go really writing a piece

56:42.483 --> 56:46.833
in order to declare Joachim of
Flora heretical.

56:46.829 --> 56:51.229
So if this a very powerful
explanation that Dante's really

56:51.233 --> 56:55.253
alluding to the second coming at
the end of time,

56:55.250 --> 56:59.540
the DXV, when Christ will
return to earth to restore the

56:59.539 --> 57:02.629
Messianic advent,
to restore justice to the

57:02.626 --> 57:06.286
world, and it will come first of
all in glory of the divinity

57:06.291 --> 57:09.891
first and the humanity second,
both joined by the cross,

57:09.885 --> 57:12.305
the humanity and the divinity
together.

57:12.309 --> 57:16.949
Then and--if there's not
enough--is he an apocalyptic

57:16.954 --> 57:17.764
writer?

57:17.760 --> 57:20.320
I doubt that he is an
apocalyptic writer,

57:20.320 --> 57:22.980
because there's no poet I know,
and I think we have given

57:22.978 --> 57:25.588
plenty of evidence of this over
the last two months,

57:25.590 --> 57:29.110
who cares more about the
institutions,

57:29.110 --> 57:32.180
who believes that the
institutions are history.

57:32.179 --> 57:36.109
And of course he attacks them
in the measuring in which he

57:36.110 --> 57:39.560
thinks that they have to be
revitalized, refreshed,

57:39.556 --> 57:40.726
and improved.

57:40.730 --> 57:45.300
You cannot go on attacking the
institutions from--without

57:45.295 --> 57:49.855
really believing in their vital
importance in history.

57:49.860 --> 57:53.740
He talks about the Empire,
he talks about the Church,

57:53.735 --> 57:56.785
he talks about law,
he talks about family,

57:56.793 --> 57:57.393
etc.

57:57.389 --> 58:00.569
They're all institutions that
preserve their enduring

58:00.574 --> 58:01.374
importance.

58:01.369 --> 58:04.739
If he's not an apocalyptic
writer, what is he then?

58:04.739 --> 58:09.019
I think that this is an
allusion to the coming of--

58:09.018 --> 58:12.818
the second coming,
but without--removing all of

58:12.820 --> 58:17.780
the Joachist paraphernalia that
accompanied that prophecy.

58:17.780 --> 58:19.130
This is indeed the time.

58:19.130 --> 58:22.900
It doesn't refer to the now of
history, it refers to a time

58:22.902 --> 58:26.742
that nobody can really fathom
and nobody can really know.

58:26.739 --> 58:31.559
So I'm giving--I have given you
a reading of this passage and

58:31.556 --> 58:35.726
given you a glimpse of the
logical complications that

58:35.731 --> 58:40.791
usually accompany what it would
seem to be such a neat discovery

58:40.789 --> 58:43.759
or a neat glossing of an image.

58:43.760 --> 58:47.920
Of course with this prophecy
the poem will come to an end,

58:47.920 --> 58:50.720
and the poem comes to an end
with Dante,

58:50.719 --> 58:53.219
who goes--and I will talk about
this image again--

58:53.219 --> 58:56.779
who has to be ritually immersed.

58:56.780 --> 58:59.950
He will be immersed into two
rivers.

58:59.949 --> 59:04.299
The river Lethe,
the river of forgetfulness and

59:04.304 --> 59:08.664
the river Eunoe,
the river of good memories.

59:08.659 --> 59:13.799
It's a ritual--this is toward
the end of Canto XXXIII--

59:13.800 --> 59:16.440
that reminds you of the ritual
actions at the beginning of

59:16.440 --> 59:19.160
Canto I,
where Dante washes his face and

59:19.155 --> 59:24.145
has to gird his loins with--
you remember with the reed that

59:24.146 --> 59:28.956
was growing spontaneously on the
shore of the sea.

59:28.960 --> 59:33.010
What Dante goes on saying is
the two rivers,

59:33.014 --> 59:37.164
Lethe and Eunoe,
derive--flow out of the same

59:37.161 --> 59:38.201
source.

59:38.199 --> 59:41.599
And then he says,
like two lazy friends,

59:41.597 --> 59:46.387
friends who are fond of each
other, they go on departing

59:46.391 --> 59:47.351
lazily.

59:47.349 --> 59:48.809
That's the image that he uses.

59:48.809 --> 59:53.099
What is interesting is that
he's thinking of memory and

59:53.099 --> 59:56.279
forgetfulness,
the Lethe and Eunoe,

59:56.280 --> 1:00:00.210
as entailing each other,
so that there's no erasure

1:00:00.208 --> 1:00:02.648
which is not at the same time a
memory,

1:00:02.650 --> 1:00:06.180
that each contains the other
and Dante will go--

1:00:06.179 --> 1:00:09.079
has a lot to say about
forgetful memory,

1:00:09.079 --> 1:00:12.829
especially in the way the poem
will be written.

1:00:12.829 --> 1:00:17.809
Finally, with a line,
the whole poem ends with--

1:00:17.809 --> 1:00:23.759
the whole of Purgatorio
ends with a line that obviously

1:00:23.760 --> 1:00:28.250
reminds you of the very end
Inferno,

1:00:28.250 --> 1:00:29.880
"From the most holy
waters,"

1:00:29.875 --> 1:00:32.575
this is Canto XXXIII,
"I came forth again

1:00:32.579 --> 1:00:34.659
remade,
even as new plants,"

1:00:34.659 --> 1:00:38.049
the very language of the
beginning of Purgatorio,

1:00:38.050 --> 1:00:43.130
"renewed with new leaves,
pure and ready to mount to the

1:00:43.126 --> 1:00:44.386
stars."

1:00:44.389 --> 1:00:50.549
Dante once again now is at the
top of Purgatory and he will fly

1:00:50.545 --> 1:00:52.685
next,
like lightening,

1:00:52.693 --> 1:00:57.693
onto the Moon and we shall see
him in this kind of planetary

1:00:57.688 --> 1:01:01.978
epic,
cosmological epic that we'll

1:01:01.978 --> 1:01:04.498
start on next time.

1:01:04.500 --> 1:01:12.440
Now I'm sure you have questions
and we are doing okay with

1:01:12.438 --> 1:01:16.058
timing, so please shoot.

1:01:16.059 --> 1:01:30.639


1:01:30.639 --> 1:01:33.789
Yes.

1:01:33.789 --> 1:01:37.989
Student:  You mentioned
a transition from the ethical in

1:01:37.989 --> 1:01:41.239
Purgatory to the aesthetic in
Paradise.

1:01:41.239 --> 1:01:51.659
Could you just expand
>?

1:01:51.659 --> 1:01:57.699
Prof: Very good question.

1:01:57.699 --> 1:02:02.949
The question is--that I spoke
about in Canto XXX of

1:02:02.952 --> 1:02:08.182
Purgatorio,
I spoke about the transition,

1:02:08.181 --> 1:02:13.601
formal transition from the
structure of the epic with

1:02:13.603 --> 1:02:16.833
Virgil,
the poet of the epic,

1:02:16.826 --> 1:02:20.356
and then moving onto--
in effect I spoke of the

1:02:20.355 --> 1:02:24.425
autobiographical,
first of all where Beatrice

1:02:24.429 --> 1:02:27.599
refers to--
calls Dante by name.

1:02:27.599 --> 1:02:31.079
So it's his story,
Dante, don't cry because Virgil

1:02:31.079 --> 1:02:33.679
has disappeared,
I'm going to give you a chance

1:02:33.684 --> 1:02:36.284
to cry for other reasons and
then goes on into a confession,

1:02:36.280 --> 1:02:37.970
which is an Augustinian poem.

1:02:37.969 --> 1:02:39.959
But also it's true,
I mentioned there is a

1:02:39.963 --> 1:02:43.513
transition to--
I mean, I did say that in

1:02:43.507 --> 1:02:49.157
Paradise is the world of
aesthetics where the ethical

1:02:49.159 --> 1:02:54.049
ordering is liquidated in a
certain sense.

1:02:54.050 --> 1:02:57.510
So the question is,
how does this respond to the

1:02:57.505 --> 1:02:59.265
whole arc of the poem?

1:02:59.268 --> 1:03:02.848
What kind of--what am I really
saying about the whole

1:03:02.846 --> 1:03:06.766
experience of the poem to make
the aesthetic essential for

1:03:06.766 --> 1:03:09.376
knowledge, if that's the
argument?

1:03:09.380 --> 1:03:10.350
That is true.

1:03:10.349 --> 1:03:13.579
I really welcome this question
because that's the way I'm

1:03:13.576 --> 1:03:15.936
reading poetry,
as if poetry were a way of

1:03:15.938 --> 1:03:16.628
knowing.

1:03:16.630 --> 1:03:21.150
I keep saying this,
that it's really a way of

1:03:21.152 --> 1:03:27.212
knowing from that point of view,
a philosophical kind of poetry,

1:03:27.213 --> 1:03:31.193
realizing and keeping in mind
that there are always

1:03:31.186 --> 1:03:35.236
distinctions and ongoing
quarrels between poetry and

1:03:35.237 --> 1:03:36.507
philosophy.

1:03:36.510 --> 1:03:41.050
Paradiso is--like any
true ethics,

1:03:41.050 --> 1:03:43.530
this is a general
pronouncement,

1:03:43.530 --> 1:03:47.120
Dante doesn't make it,
but it's a kind of premise to

1:03:47.119 --> 1:03:48.599
what I'll be saying later.

1:03:48.599 --> 1:03:52.559
Any true ethics can only be
successful in the measure in

1:03:52.563 --> 1:03:54.513
which it stops operating.

1:03:54.510 --> 1:03:58.660
That's when the ethics is
really--you can say that it has

1:03:58.655 --> 1:04:00.575
done its job as it were.

1:04:00.579 --> 1:04:05.859
So we enter a world where now
is the world of Paradise

1:04:05.858 --> 1:04:09.728
and Dante goes on representing
this world.

1:04:09.730 --> 1:04:11.950
He'll never forget the earth.

1:04:11.949 --> 1:04:15.379
I have to qualify that,
even in Paradise,

1:04:15.378 --> 1:04:17.858
he's going to look at the
earth.

1:04:17.860 --> 1:04:23.290
He celebrates the greatest
aspects of human life:

1:04:23.291 --> 1:04:28.611
work, love, things that
join--joy--the community

1:04:28.608 --> 1:04:30.078
together.

1:04:30.079 --> 1:04:33.059
He will see also the
distortions that are going

1:04:33.063 --> 1:04:37.083
on--where they are the--in the
Empire, in the political life or

1:04:37.083 --> 1:04:39.033
in the life of the Church.

1:04:39.030 --> 1:04:41.990
Every time that there is a
retrospective look,

1:04:41.987 --> 1:04:45.007
there is a kind of dismay that
he will feel.

1:04:45.010 --> 1:04:48.220
So there is all of that,
but the emphasis is on the

1:04:48.217 --> 1:04:51.167
world of Paradise:
it's about dance,

1:04:51.170 --> 1:04:55.220
it's about songs,
it's about love,

1:04:55.217 --> 1:04:59.877
it's about stars wooing each
other,

1:05:03.869 --> 1:05:08.169
the pyrotechnics of--it's about
different forms of light.

1:05:08.170 --> 1:05:09.130
What is this about?

1:05:09.130 --> 1:05:12.140
Exactly what I call the
aesthetic experience;

1:05:12.139 --> 1:05:15.879
these are all poetic artistic
experiences.

1:05:15.880 --> 1:05:20.820
The first thing we are to keep
in mind is Dante really thinks

1:05:20.824 --> 1:05:25.694
of a theology that is really
like poetry: a theology that is

1:05:25.688 --> 1:05:29.848
like poetry,
in the sense that both are part

1:05:29.853 --> 1:05:31.933
of--
or if you wish an even--won't

1:05:31.927 --> 1:05:33.217
even call it theology.

1:05:33.219 --> 1:05:35.129
Let me call it--finish that
sentence--

1:05:35.130 --> 1:05:38.910
theology which is like poetry
in the sense that it's a playful

1:05:38.914 --> 1:05:42.904
theology,
a way of understanding that the

1:05:42.898 --> 1:05:48.958
essence of God now can be seen
in his comical figuration.

1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:53.430
A God who is the artist,
a God who thinks that this the

1:05:53.434 --> 1:05:57.004
way in which human beings were
supposed--

1:05:57.000 --> 1:05:59.300
were first created in the
Garden of Eden,

1:05:59.300 --> 1:06:02.830
where we are really in a
garden, meant to play,

1:06:02.829 --> 1:06:04.989
and that's where we are going
back too.

1:06:04.989 --> 1:06:10.259
It's a way of casting the
divinity in the most--as beauty,

1:06:10.257 --> 1:06:14.137
a beauty that also encompasses
the good.

1:06:14.139 --> 1:06:17.859
Beyond that,
beyond this playful or ludic

1:06:17.862 --> 1:06:20.422
theology,
this idea of an aesthetic

1:06:20.416 --> 1:06:22.646
theology,
there is something else that

1:06:22.646 --> 1:06:25.896
Dante is saying about the
proximity between the poetic and

1:06:25.900 --> 1:06:26.870
the religious.

1:06:26.869 --> 1:06:30.789
It's not a connection that is
usually made because we tend to

1:06:30.791 --> 1:06:34.391
believe that the poetic is just
the world of deceptions,

1:06:34.387 --> 1:06:35.497
make believe.

1:06:35.500 --> 1:06:38.700
In fact, it's both,
the poetic and the religious,

1:06:38.699 --> 1:06:41.279
and we can say that even about
the philosophical if you wish,

1:06:41.280 --> 1:06:45.170
they respond to profound
impulses within us.

1:06:45.170 --> 1:06:46.660
They are emotions that we have.

1:06:46.659 --> 1:06:50.049
You see beauty and you tremble
in the presence of beauty,

1:06:50.045 --> 1:06:52.945
whether it's a human beauty,
it's natural beauty,

1:06:52.949 --> 1:06:54.339
or artistic beauty.

1:06:54.340 --> 1:06:57.750
Whatever it is that we're
encountering there is something

1:06:57.751 --> 1:07:01.651
that responds in us and the same
thing about the idea of awe,

1:07:01.650 --> 1:07:05.440
and the idea of discovery of
sense of the sublime,

1:07:05.440 --> 1:07:08.500
whenever you have what we call
a religious experience.

1:07:08.500 --> 1:07:10.800
The two are not neatly
separated;

1:07:10.800 --> 1:07:15.470
this is what drives the poet in
the journey of Paradise.

1:07:15.469 --> 1:07:20.499
This is where the actual source
of his inspiration,

1:07:20.500 --> 1:07:24.720
that's the novelty that Dante
represents and which probably

1:07:24.722 --> 1:07:28.762
some Romantic poets much later--
I'm talking about the

1:07:28.762 --> 1:07:32.862
nineteenth century have been
trying to restore or grasp,

1:07:32.855 --> 1:07:34.115
or understand.

1:07:34.119 --> 1:07:37.839
You do have that in Dante.

1:07:37.840 --> 1:07:41.280
Do you have it for instance in
the Bible?

1:07:41.280 --> 1:07:43.360
I dare say you do,
because whenever we think

1:07:43.362 --> 1:07:46.382
about--
there are so many courses at

1:07:46.382 --> 1:07:50.892
Yale that used to be taught,
I don't look at the offerings

1:07:50.893 --> 1:07:53.723
anymore because I think I know
them by heart,

1:07:53.719 --> 1:07:55.789
not for any other reason--but
"the Bible as

1:07:55.791 --> 1:07:56.631
literature."

1:07:56.630 --> 1:07:58.400
It is great,
but the idea,

1:07:58.400 --> 1:08:02.580
the underlying idea is always
that the Bible can only has to

1:08:02.579 --> 1:08:05.869
be read--
novels--that's all right,

1:08:05.869 --> 1:08:09.379
that's very good but that's not
all.

1:08:09.380 --> 1:08:11.570
To say that,
as I did, that the Song of

1:08:11.568 --> 1:08:14.278
Songs is a fantastic--I said it
ten minutes ago,

1:08:14.275 --> 1:08:17.265
that the Song of Songs is a
fantastic love poem.

1:08:17.270 --> 1:08:22.090
What I'm really saying is that
the poetic is already in itself

1:08:22.088 --> 1:08:26.348
proximate to the religious,
so that when we think about the

1:08:26.353 --> 1:08:29.593
Bible and literature we are
already rephrasing another

1:08:29.591 --> 1:08:32.341
version of this problem which is
that of--

1:08:32.340 --> 1:08:35.680
that Dante presents as the
religious and the poetic in

1:08:35.684 --> 1:08:36.824
Paradise.

1:08:36.819 --> 1:08:38.409
I hope I've answered your
question.

1:08:38.409 --> 1:08:40.389
Thank you.

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