WEBVTT 00:01.360 --> 00:05.640 Prof: We talked the last time-- 00:05.640 --> 00:11.580 I talked a little about this whole issue of the imagination 00:11.579 --> 00:16.959 that Dante places, along with a definition of 00:16.961 --> 00:21.311 love, and the-- and love is the power that 00:21.311 --> 00:24.831 governs, that shapes the moral world of 00:24.826 --> 00:26.386 Purgatory. 00:26.390 --> 00:30.730 Last time we talked about these two fossae of Canto XVII, 00:30.734 --> 00:35.444 the two fossae of the center; it really makes the center kind 00:35.436 --> 00:39.506 of ellipses, as it were, between imagination and love. 00:39.510 --> 00:47.200 Love is attached to the--it's joined to a theory of free will, 00:47.200 --> 00:51.890 because it's by choice--because of our choices that we can be 00:51.885 --> 00:55.785 held accountable for the actions that we engage in: 00:55.789 --> 01:01.249 loving wrong objects, loving too much or loving too 01:01.252 --> 01:02.202 little. 01:02.200 --> 01:06.520 Some of the problems, I think, stem from a certain 01:06.516 --> 01:10.126 misunderstanding about the imagination. 01:10.129 --> 01:13.409 That Dante should place the imagination at the center of the 01:13.408 --> 01:15.518 poem should really not surprise you. 01:15.519 --> 01:20.869 He's a poet and he thinks that imagination is indeed the path 01:20.870 --> 01:26.580 that he has to take in order to come to any form of knowledge. 01:26.580 --> 01:28.500 It's only through the imagination it's not-- 01:28.500 --> 01:30.980 that does not exclude rationality, but that's the 01:30.980 --> 01:34.410 discourse of philosophers, the discourse of theologians if 01:34.413 --> 01:37.203 you wish, but he places the imagination 01:37.200 --> 01:38.070 as his way. 01:38.069 --> 01:43.619 And then from that point of view, he can even challenge some 01:43.623 --> 01:48.903 ideas of the superiority, let's say, of rational argument 01:48.896 --> 01:51.246 over the imagination. 01:51.250 --> 01:54.220 The imagination is the weapon of the poet. 01:54.220 --> 01:58.330 How--with what kind of attributes does he invest the 01:58.331 --> 01:59.461 imagination? 01:59.459 --> 02:01.109 It's tied to memory. 02:01.108 --> 02:05.628 The Canto XVII begins with an apostrophe to the reader's 02:05.629 --> 02:06.369 memory. 02:06.370 --> 02:10.490 It appears as, in the feminine, 02:10.488 --> 02:17.218 imaginativa, the--in the--Dante's silencing 02:17.215 --> 02:20.505 the term vis. 02:20.508 --> 02:23.238 It has a sort of force, imagination, 02:23.235 --> 02:25.645 it's moved by something else. 02:25.650 --> 02:29.780 Dante does not decide whether it's the heaven or the stars or 02:29.781 --> 02:33.291 comes from inside us, but he has a particular power, 02:33.292 --> 02:34.672 a strange power. 02:34.669 --> 02:38.219 It comes like a thief in the night, 02:38.220 --> 02:47.770 it robs us of any degree of consciousness about the world 02:47.769 --> 02:53.959 outside of us and, just as memory dislodges--the 02:53.960 --> 02:58.910 description of memory at the beginning of Canto XVII, 02:58.910 --> 03:01.650 it's a memory that has an incredible memory as a form of 03:01.652 --> 03:03.202 the imagination, as you know. 03:03.199 --> 03:05.989 Memory and the imagination are connected. 03:05.990 --> 03:10.850 It's a form of the imagination, but it's a memory that has the 03:10.848 --> 03:15.398 power to move up and down, the text evokes the Alpine 03:15.396 --> 03:18.406 heights and the depth of the mole. 03:18.408 --> 03:22.428 It talks about a form of blindness and yet it creates 03:22.425 --> 03:23.115 vision. 03:23.120 --> 03:27.920 Memory is a figure of time and then the whole passage is 03:27.921 --> 03:33.431 described in terms of space, as if imagination had the power 03:33.431 --> 03:37.861 to dislocate us from where we think that we are. 03:37.860 --> 03:40.300 This is the point, and it's not an unusual point 03:40.299 --> 03:43.889 for Dante to make, since this is the poetry of 03:43.890 --> 03:49.170 exile, the poetry of a man who thinks that he's a stranger 03:49.173 --> 03:51.493 while living on earth. 03:51.490 --> 03:55.870 A man, without a sense, a clear sense of where his home 03:55.869 --> 03:58.929 may be, he is--this is the poetry 03:58.930 --> 04:03.070 rooted in the consciousness of homelessness, 04:03.068 --> 04:05.178 so the imagination is an extension, 04:05.180 --> 04:09.720 an internalized version of this sense of homelessness. 04:09.718 --> 04:13.808 It has a power and that power that doesn't seem to be able to 04:13.810 --> 04:17.140 be-- a power that cannot quite be 04:17.139 --> 04:23.399 contained or coerced within definite parameters of conduct. 04:23.399 --> 04:26.619 In fact, this insistence on the imagination, 04:26.620 --> 04:29.420 I'm really recapitulating the things that maybe I thought I 04:29.423 --> 04:31.553 said and probably I didn't say last time, 04:31.550 --> 04:35.220 between, on the one hand, the sin of wrath, 04:35.220 --> 04:37.470 which is a form of madness. 04:37.470 --> 04:40.650 That is to say, a sin that eclipses the powers 04:40.654 --> 04:43.914 of reason, that's anger, and on the other hand, 04:43.908 --> 04:45.818 this discourse on love. 04:45.819 --> 04:49.149 This is really what I was saying. 04:49.149 --> 04:52.679 Dante understands that there is an imagination which cannot 04:52.678 --> 04:56.658 quite be held in check, and yet the whole point of the 04:56.660 --> 04:59.440 poem I'm talking-- whenever I'm talking about the 04:59.435 --> 05:01.745 poem, I point out some seemingly 05:01.747 --> 05:05.757 insignificant details like, oh look this is a symmetry here 05:05.764 --> 05:07.874 between Canto VI of Inferno, 05:07.870 --> 05:10.500 Canto VI of Purgatorio, or whatever, 05:10.500 --> 05:15.950 to indicate that it is a poem built with a precise principle 05:15.952 --> 05:17.712 of order in mind. 05:17.709 --> 05:21.529 Not only it has order in its technical execution, 05:21.533 --> 05:24.643 it has order also as a moral problem. 05:24.639 --> 05:28.219 It's all about ordering the appetites, ordering the will. 05:28.220 --> 05:31.310 But at the same time along side with it, 05:31.310 --> 05:34.690 and this is the complexity and the beauty of Dante's text, 05:34.690 --> 05:37.750 this is another argument that almost questions, 05:37.750 --> 05:42.530 makes us--forces us into thinking that there are some 05:42.529 --> 05:48.139 elements that seem to be left out of this fabric of order that 05:48.139 --> 05:50.899 Dante has woven, or if you like, 05:50.898 --> 05:53.888 the metaphor has built-- the architecture that he has 05:53.887 --> 05:54.287 built. 05:54.290 --> 05:56.560 Let' see how this argument really continues. 05:56.560 --> 05:59.080 That's not the end of the story. 05:59.079 --> 06:03.199 This is just a stage in his movement of self-knowledge and 06:03.201 --> 06:05.011 knowledge of the world. 06:05.009 --> 06:09.229 In fact, Canto XVIII, we're now moving into a 06:09.230 --> 06:13.410 different moral realm, it's a moral realm where we 06:13.406 --> 06:16.626 actually know we are moving toward a so-called, 06:16.629 --> 06:22.249 what Dante and medieval theorists of vices call 06:22.252 --> 06:24.212 acedia. 06:24.209 --> 06:28.799 Acedia is a Latin term, which in English we can 06:28.800 --> 06:31.440 describe-- we'll describe as a sort of 06:31.439 --> 06:35.479 despondency, as a sort of indecisiveness, 06:35.480 --> 06:37.890 sluggishness, sloth. 06:37.889 --> 06:42.379 That's it, that's the--if you are interested in knowing more 06:42.375 --> 06:46.095 about what the Middle Ages thought about this, 06:46.100 --> 06:50.800 this scholar Wenzel wrote a book called, 06:50.800 --> 06:52.900 Acedia, exactly about the--both in 06:52.901 --> 06:57.461 English medieval literature, Dante and other issues. 06:57.459 --> 07:00.529 What more precisely--how can we go on understanding this 07:00.528 --> 07:02.088 question of acedia? 07:02.088 --> 07:06.748 It's in a sense the parody or the inversion of contemplation. 07:06.750 --> 07:11.230 It's tied to a sense of loss of the outside world. 07:11.230 --> 07:17.080 Acedia describes the condition of the mind that has 07:17.083 --> 07:22.323 found itself indifferent to the object of desire. 07:22.319 --> 07:24.429 It really is a crisis of desire. 07:24.430 --> 07:28.090 One finds objects that--the sloth, the sluggishness, 07:28.091 --> 07:30.461 the indecisiveness of the mind. 07:30.459 --> 07:35.369 It is as if the objects of desire were--had lost their 07:35.367 --> 07:38.427 consistency, their attractiveness, 07:38.425 --> 07:39.995 their luster. 07:40.000 --> 07:41.680 You just don't care. 07:41.680 --> 07:45.820 It's the problem, the so-called noonday devil, 07:45.821 --> 07:51.071 the temptation of the monks, that's why I call it a parody 07:51.067 --> 07:52.997 of contemplation. 07:53.000 --> 07:56.990 It's the temptation that the monks experienced in their 07:56.985 --> 08:01.555 cloisters when they sort of find that the whole idea of turning 08:01.562 --> 08:04.812 their minds to the divine is no longer, 08:04.810 --> 08:09.820 or provisionally perhaps, is not appealing. 08:09.819 --> 08:14.299 It's the loss of appeal of anything outside of oneself and 08:14.300 --> 08:18.630 indicates a kind of both intellectual and dreamy sort of 08:18.625 --> 08:23.495 condition and that's really what I want to talk about now. 08:23.500 --> 08:29.300 Canto XVIII is the most intellectual of cantos in 08:29.302 --> 08:31.602 Purgatory. 08:31.600 --> 08:34.700 Dante faces a theoretical issue. 08:34.700 --> 08:39.420 He's talking to Virgil, and these theoretical issues of 08:39.416 --> 08:44.216 Canto XVIII flow out of the problems that we have had in 08:44.219 --> 08:46.489 discussing Canto XVII. 08:46.490 --> 08:48.580 As you know, we are talking about 08:48.577 --> 08:51.707 imagination and love, and there is an imagination 08:51.707 --> 08:53.597 that somehow is vagabond. 08:53.600 --> 08:56.520 It's a thief, breaks out of any particular 08:56.524 --> 08:58.534 confines; it dislodges us. 08:58.529 --> 09:03.349 It takes the ground out of our own certainties about the way we 09:03.346 --> 09:04.586 see the world. 09:04.590 --> 09:08.620 Remember that the image with which Canto XVII starts, 09:08.621 --> 09:12.811 Dante places us in a world which is at the twilight. 09:12.809 --> 09:14.349 There's no real light. 09:14.350 --> 09:17.180 It's all foggy, and then all of a sudden, 09:17.178 --> 09:19.658 we do see something, and it's unclear whether we see 09:19.664 --> 09:22.544 something because of the light that comes from within us. 09:22.538 --> 09:25.898 Memories, for instance, that's a light we carry within 09:25.903 --> 09:27.683 us, confused, as they may be, 09:27.679 --> 09:30.599 or some other kind of conscious intuition. 09:30.600 --> 09:34.260 That's really the discourse of the imagination and that 09:34.260 --> 09:36.160 dislodged some of us here. 09:36.158 --> 09:41.108 That made it a little difficult to try to get a hold of--grasp. 09:41.110 --> 09:44.430 Dante has the same problem in Canto XVIII. 09:44.428 --> 09:48.898 Canto XVIII begins with a question that he asks of Virgil. 09:48.899 --> 09:53.249 You are talking about love, you are talking about this 09:53.253 --> 09:57.693 inclination, the whole theory of love in Canto XVII. 09:57.690 --> 10:01.690 He says, "Master, my sight," 10:01.693 --> 10:06.243 this is Canto XVIII the very beginning, 10:06.240 --> 10:10.310 "is so quickened in thy light that I discern clearly all 10:10.306 --> 10:12.946 that thy words set forth and explain; 10:12.950 --> 10:16.310 and I pray therefore, dear and gentle Father, 10:16.307 --> 10:20.877 that thou expound love to me, to which thou reduce every good 10:20.884 --> 10:23.484 action and its opposite." 10:23.480 --> 10:28.190 Whatever you have told me in Canto XVII really is not enough. 10:28.190 --> 10:33.120 And Virgil goes on explaining the theory--that it's a very 10:33.115 --> 10:37.345 philosophical theory, that we have perceptions. 10:37.350 --> 10:41.520 Your perception takes from outward reality an impression 10:41.517 --> 10:45.607 and unfolds it within you, so it makes the mind turn to 10:45.609 --> 10:46.139 it. 10:46.139 --> 10:50.509 Whatever the will is bound, that's really what we call 10:50.511 --> 10:51.421 pleasure. 10:51.419 --> 10:53.169 I'm paraphrasing poorly. 10:53.168 --> 10:57.328 "Thy words and my following..." 10:57.330 --> 11:00.530 Excuse me, let me just mention another little passage: 11:00.532 --> 11:03.012 "Now may be plain," line 35, 11:03.009 --> 11:05.919 "Now may be plain to thee how hidden is the truth for 11:05.922 --> 11:08.272 those who maintain that every love is in itself 11:08.272 --> 11:09.552 praiseworthy..." 11:09.548 --> 11:13.258 He's attacking--this is the view of the Epicureans who 11:13.259 --> 11:17.219 believe that every pleasure, without any particular judgment 11:17.221 --> 11:19.361 attached to the object of pleasure, 11:19.360 --> 11:20.300 is praiseworthy. 11:20.298 --> 11:24.148 Dante says no, we have to exercise some moral 11:24.154 --> 11:25.124 judgment. 11:25.120 --> 11:28.270 We have to create distinctions. 11:28.269 --> 11:32.919 We have to discriminate between the good and the bad love. 11:32.918 --> 11:33.418 "... 11:33.422 --> 11:35.882 perhaps because its matter always seems good, 11:35.880 --> 11:39.290 but not every stamp is good, even if it be good wax." 11:39.288 --> 11:43.028 I would even go so far as to say that he's really thinking 11:43.029 --> 11:47.969 now of his friend Cavalcanti-- Guido's Epicurean--you saw him 11:47.966 --> 11:52.906 mention in Canto XII by name-- Epicurean leanings. 11:52.908 --> 11:57.898 The idea--that's the Epicurean ethics, that if pleasure is 11:57.895 --> 12:03.225 really the only object really worthy of any pursuit and that's 12:03.231 --> 12:05.771 really what we are doing. 12:05.769 --> 12:10.729 When we are in pursuit of knowledge or real experiences, 12:10.730 --> 12:14.970 then they claim that all of pleasure is good. 12:14.970 --> 12:19.330 That's the hedonistic ethics that Dante really renounces or 12:19.327 --> 12:20.077 debates. 12:20.080 --> 12:21.830 Then, in fact, Virgil goes on saying: 12:21.825 --> 12:23.855 "Thy words and my following wit," 12:23.860 --> 12:26.490 this is Dante talking, "have revealed the nature 12:26.493 --> 12:29.023 of love to me, but that has made me more full 12:29.019 --> 12:31.679 of perplexity; for if love is offered to us 12:31.683 --> 12:35.003 from without and if the soul moves with no other feet, 12:35.004 --> 12:38.644 it has no merit when it goes straight to crooked." 12:38.639 --> 12:43.489 Now you say that everything is love and the love that I have 12:43.491 --> 12:46.701 depends on the experience of images, 12:46.700 --> 12:51.280 well in what--how am I going to deserve for choosing well or not 12:51.283 --> 12:54.453 choosing well, since at the basis of the 12:54.448 --> 12:56.448 imagination, we have perceptions. 12:56.450 --> 13:01.510 What I perceive may be looking good to me and does not look 13:01.510 --> 13:04.830 good to you, so the issue is displaced from 13:04.826 --> 13:08.296 the point of the world of imagination to the world of 13:08.302 --> 13:09.242 perception. 13:09.240 --> 13:18.160 Virgil will go on explaining a scholastic theory to the point 13:18.159 --> 13:23.809 that indeed we incline to the good, 13:23.808 --> 13:27.778 but then actually we have within us the faculty of choice. 13:27.778 --> 13:31.178 He says, "In order that to this will every other may be 13:31.181 --> 13:34.761 conformed there is innate in you the faculty which counsels and 13:34.755 --> 13:37.865 which ought to hold the threshold of assent." 13:37.870 --> 13:40.900 He's talking about, once again, free will and he 13:40.897 --> 13:43.827 will add, this is what I--this is on line 13:43.832 --> 13:47.202 60 and following, this is all I can tell you from 13:47.195 --> 13:49.225 a philosophical point of view. 13:49.230 --> 13:54.320 Other issues about the free will will be explained to you by 13:54.322 --> 13:57.692 Beatrice when she first comes to you. 13:57.690 --> 14:01.270 And so it would seem to make a distinction between the 14:01.268 --> 14:04.778 knowledge of Virgil and the knowledge of Beatrice. 14:04.778 --> 14:08.548 He said, "As far as reason sees here I can tell thee, 14:08.552 --> 14:10.712 beyond that; wait only for Beatrice, 14:10.712 --> 14:13.182 for it is a matter of faith," and so on. 14:13.178 --> 14:17.068 There seems to be two ways of understanding this issue. 14:17.070 --> 14:20.650 The fact is that Beatrice will never discuss this problem, 14:20.649 --> 14:23.829 but in a sense, Beatrice represents the 14:23.833 --> 14:27.273 explanation that Dante is looking for, 14:27.269 --> 14:29.779 because Beatrice is a kind of love, 14:29.778 --> 14:34.538 for Dante, that stands for a visionary form of love, 14:34.538 --> 14:39.048 and not just a love that can be reduced to a question of 14:39.053 --> 14:42.093 mechanics of physics of perception. 14:42.090 --> 14:48.930 That's really what Canto XVIII seems to be doing then. 14:48.928 --> 14:53.188 It responds, enlarges, and at the same time 14:53.193 --> 14:59.183 brings us back into the very predicament that Canto XVII had 14:59.183 --> 15:00.913 posed for us. 15:00.908 --> 15:04.868 It seems that Dante is moving, and at the same time, 15:04.870 --> 15:08.520 an impasse--another impasse has been reached. 15:08.519 --> 15:13.859 Now, with this in mind, we turn to what he unavoidably 15:13.860 --> 15:18.520 has to do, try to translate all of these 15:18.523 --> 15:21.883 issues of love, imagination, 15:21.875 --> 15:26.495 choice, and from the theoretical into the 15:26.499 --> 15:31.699 autobiographical or existential dimension. 15:31.700 --> 15:36.720 This is done in the dream, an erotic dream that Dante 15:36.719 --> 15:40.579 relates at the beginning of Canto XIX. 15:40.580 --> 15:44.040 Before I turn to that canto, I just want to tell you about 15:44.039 --> 15:45.739 how Dante understand this. 15:45.740 --> 15:51.360 He has one line at the very end of Canto XVIII that I would-- 15:51.360 --> 15:55.790 the last line of Canto XVIII --that I really want to 15:55.793 --> 15:59.353 underline for you, the whole paragraph reads: 15:59.347 --> 16:03.467 "Then when the shades were so far parted from us that they 16:03.467 --> 16:07.877 could no longer be seen, a new thought arose within me, 16:07.883 --> 16:11.803 from which others many and diverse were born; 16:11.798 --> 16:17.048 and I rambled so from one to the other, that in my wandering 16:17.053 --> 16:22.223 my eyes closed and I changed my musing into dream." 16:22.220 --> 16:26.550 That introduces the dream of Canto XIX, 16:26.548 --> 16:30.378 but the line in Italian is really very interesting because 16:30.376 --> 16:34.336 it presents the connection between thinking and dreaming. 16:34.340 --> 16:35.940 He says, in fact the translation: "My 16:35.937 --> 16:37.727 musing," it's correct but it's really-- 16:37.730 --> 16:39.530 I would have said to make it very clear, 16:39.529 --> 16:40.639 my thought. 16:40.639 --> 16:46.169 Dante says on line 145, che li occhi per vaghezza 16:46.169 --> 16:51.809 ricopersi, e 'l pensamento in sogno trasmutai. 16:51.808 --> 16:56.178 There's a kind of link, a sort of sense of the 16:56.183 --> 17:01.723 connection between thinking and dreaming that Dante favors 17:01.724 --> 17:05.714 dreaming at this point over thinking. 17:05.710 --> 17:08.300 You shouldn't be surprised that Dante's doing this. 17:08.298 --> 17:11.608 The Romance of the Rose, a grand medieval epic, 17:11.608 --> 17:14.418 is a dream, and tells the story of a dream. 17:14.420 --> 17:17.160 The Book of the Duchess--Chaucer's The 17:17.157 --> 17:20.127 Book of the Duchess, is the story of a dream. 17:20.130 --> 17:22.530 The Vita nuova is full of dreams. 17:22.528 --> 17:25.458 Even for those of you who are interested in contemporary 17:25.462 --> 17:27.792 literature, fairly contemporary, 17:27.791 --> 17:30.641 I'm thinking of Keats' great poem, 17:30.640 --> 17:32.580 "Sleep and Poetry." 17:32.578 --> 17:34.818 I don't know how many of you have had a chance to read that. 17:34.818 --> 17:39.898 Poets love sleeping because sleep introduces the idea of the 17:39.896 --> 17:43.336 dream and the possibility of a dream, 17:43.338 --> 17:46.238 the possibility of a knowledge which is not willed. 17:46.240 --> 17:50.390 I finally have some revelations within me which is not what I 17:50.391 --> 17:53.091 would normally have if I were awake, 17:53.088 --> 17:57.148 so this is the great privilege that they give to dreams. 17:57.150 --> 18:02.810 Are the Middle Ages really conscious of this dimension? 18:02.808 --> 18:06.888 Yes, there is a text by an author called Macrobius, 18:06.890 --> 18:09.140 and if you want to know more really, 18:09.140 --> 18:14.910 which Macrobius, who writes on The Dream of 18:14.913 --> 18:18.383 Scipio, Cicero's figure in the 18:18.382 --> 18:21.502 Republic, it's all about--it's an 18:21.500 --> 18:25.310 encyclopedia of dreams and based on Artemidorus, 18:25.308 --> 18:29.238 but it's distinctions between oracles, 18:29.240 --> 18:37.310 fantasies, insomniac, deliriums, dreams and so on. 18:37.308 --> 18:42.328 They are very conscious of the sort of power and revelations 18:42.330 --> 18:44.970 that can come through dreams. 18:44.970 --> 18:46.760 What is this dream about? 18:46.759 --> 18:50.099 It's now definitely in the world of acedia. 18:50.098 --> 18:55.308 It's a dream--let me just read this initial--the beginning of 18:55.307 --> 18:56.347 Canto XIX. 18:56.348 --> 19:00.148 I emphasize that this is now an autobiographical-- 19:00.150 --> 19:04.170 the highlighting of the autobiographical dimension of 19:04.172 --> 19:08.352 all the problems we have been discussing from XVII, 19:08.349 --> 19:11.919 above all XVI, XVII, and XVIII. 19:11.920 --> 19:16.960 Dante has to translate the theories into a personal-- 19:16.960 --> 19:21.470 giving them a personal shape and that to investigate the kind 19:21.473 --> 19:24.713 of importance that they may have for him. 19:24.710 --> 19:29.630 It starts then with, "In the hour when the 19:29.632 --> 19:33.112 day's heat, overcome by the earth and 19:33.114 --> 19:37.174 sometimes by Saturn, can no longer temper the cold 19:37.173 --> 19:40.863 of the moon, when the geomancers see their 19:40.855 --> 19:46.335 Fortuna Major rise in the east before dawn by a path which does 19:46.344 --> 19:52.154 not long stay dark for it, there came to me in dream a 19:52.145 --> 19:57.485 woman stammering, cross-eyed and crooked on her 19:57.488 --> 20:02.018 feet with maimed hands and of sallow hue. 20:02.019 --> 20:05.829 I gazed at her, and as the sun revives cold 20:05.827 --> 20:11.147 limbs benumbed by the night, so my look gave her a ready 20:11.152 --> 20:14.592 tongue, and then in a little time made 20:14.585 --> 20:19.945 her quite erect and colored her wan features as love desires. 20:19.950 --> 20:24.170 When she had her speech thus set free she began to sing so 20:24.172 --> 20:28.842 that it would have been hard for me to turn my mind from her. 20:28.838 --> 20:33.078 'I am,' she sang, 'I am the sweet siren who 20:33.082 --> 20:39.242 beguile the sailors in mid-sea, so great delight it is to hear 20:39.241 --> 20:39.951 me. 20:39.950 --> 20:43.330 I turned Ulysses, eager on his way, 20:43.328 --> 20:48.398 to my song and he who dwells with me rarely departs, 20:48.396 --> 20:51.276 so wholly I content him.' 20:51.279 --> 20:56.469 Her lips were not yet closed again when a lady, 20:56.468 --> 21:01.428 holy and alert, appeared beside me to put her 21:01.432 --> 21:03.352 to confusion. 21:03.348 --> 21:06.818 'Oh Virgil, Virgil, who is this?' 21:06.819 --> 21:08.699 she said with anger. 21:08.700 --> 21:12.270 And he came with his eyes fixed on the honorable one; 21:12.269 --> 21:15.709 he seized the other and laid her bare in front, 21:15.711 --> 21:19.231 tearing her clothes, and showed me her belly. 21:19.230 --> 21:24.650 That awoke me with the stench that came from her. 21:24.650 --> 21:27.440 I turned my eyes to the good Master. 21:27.440 --> 21:30.720 'Three times at least I have called thee,' he said, 21:30.720 --> 21:33.410 'rise and come, let us find the opening by 21:33.411 --> 21:35.381 which thou enterest." 21:35.380 --> 21:40.260 That's the end of the dream, the account of the dream, 21:40.257 --> 21:45.497 and this is also--the journey will continue that seemed to 21:45.501 --> 21:49.001 have come to a halt here at night. 21:49.000 --> 21:52.420 As you recall, just to give you a sense of 21:52.416 --> 21:56.996 Dante's ordered poetic mind, this is the second of three 21:57.001 --> 21:57.921 dreams. 21:57.920 --> 22:05.040 We didn't really read the first one about--in Canto IX, 22:05.038 --> 22:08.728 was the dream of Ganymede. 22:08.730 --> 22:12.260 Dante's moving from the anti-Purgatory to Purgatory 22:12.255 --> 22:15.515 proper and then it's the-- the third one will appear in 22:15.522 --> 22:17.692 Canto XXVII, so that really Dante is 22:17.689 --> 22:21.719 scanning these three dreams with also a sense of numerical-- 22:21.720 --> 22:26.410 symbolic numerical precision IX, XVIII, 22:26.410 --> 22:31.410 retold in XIX, but takes place during the 22:31.405 --> 22:34.275 night and then XXVII. 22:34.279 --> 22:39.459 This is the--it's a dream, it's a dream that happens at 22:39.461 --> 22:41.831 dawn, just some details, 22:41.828 --> 22:47.068 and a dream at dawn has always the value they believed of it 22:47.069 --> 22:50.179 being a kind of prophetic dream. 22:50.180 --> 22:54.220 It's a dream that really has a sort of a hue, 22:54.218 --> 22:56.328 a color of the truth. 22:56.328 --> 23:00.628 It says something about--so if you understand the dream as an 23:00.630 --> 23:03.640 allegory say, because it's about a veil. 23:03.640 --> 23:05.410 It's about tearing clothes. 23:05.410 --> 23:08.720 There is something hidden underneath it all, 23:08.722 --> 23:12.502 then it may be this allegory has a truth value. 23:12.500 --> 23:17.290 It's not some kind of mere fable or other. 23:17.288 --> 23:23.508 Dante starts evoking the planet Saturn which is-- 23:23.509 --> 23:29.129 we shall see that in--you know that Dante mentions planets and 23:29.125 --> 23:32.895 joins them to the various liberal arts. 23:32.900 --> 23:35.320 I probably have mentioned this before. 23:35.318 --> 23:38.178 So when we will be talking about the moon, 23:38.183 --> 23:40.703 Dante is going to discuss grammar. 23:40.700 --> 23:44.100 He'll talk about Mars, the planet of war, 23:44.102 --> 23:47.082 and there he'll talk about music. 23:47.078 --> 23:51.498 Jupiter and justice, Saturn is astronomy, 23:51.500 --> 23:55.370 also the planet of contemplation. 23:55.368 --> 23:58.928 In this sense, I think that he's hinting that 23:58.931 --> 24:03.301 sloth is the obverse side, the parody of contemplation, 24:03.300 --> 24:07.510 a different type of self-absorption nonetheless. 24:07.509 --> 24:10.359 Not a way of breaking out, the contemplation means 24:10.357 --> 24:13.787 breaking out of one's self and reach some kind of--the gates 24:13.787 --> 24:14.947 outside of time. 24:14.950 --> 24:19.090 Here it's a dream that seems to be--a movement, 24:19.088 --> 24:22.418 an inward movement, so it's Saturn. 24:22.420 --> 24:25.370 Then he continues with this language of astronomy and 24:25.372 --> 24:28.892 divination who "no longer temper the cold of the moon when 24:28.891 --> 24:31.561 the geomancers see the Fortuna Major." 24:31.558 --> 24:34.748 This is a process of knowledge, as divination. 24:34.750 --> 24:37.910 That's a different type of rational knowledge, 24:37.913 --> 24:39.113 divining signs. 24:39.108 --> 24:42.218 This is the context in which the dream is set: 24:42.221 --> 24:46.231 "rise in the east before dawn by a path which does not 24:46.231 --> 24:49.371 long stay dark for it, there came to me in a 24:49.365 --> 24:50.145 dream." 24:50.150 --> 24:51.690 Now the dream starts. 24:51.690 --> 24:57.740 The first thing that I have to point out to you is that in 24:57.740 --> 25:02.730 this--in the dream, the dreamer is an object. 25:02.730 --> 25:05.090 The dream comes to him. 25:05.088 --> 25:08.688 Clearly, it is not willed, it's not something that he 25:08.693 --> 25:10.223 decides or he wants. 25:10.220 --> 25:14.600 One is the object of some dreams or apparitions, 25:14.597 --> 25:19.997 or signs, images that descend into one's self without one's 25:20.000 --> 25:24.100 own self control or dominion over there. 25:24.098 --> 25:28.598 Dante seems to place himself in a condition of passivity which 25:28.603 --> 25:30.673 is the passivity of sloth. 25:30.670 --> 25:35.240 The idea that I am awake and therefore vigilant, 25:35.240 --> 25:39.940 and therefore capable of making judgments about what's happening 25:39.938 --> 25:41.648 to me, is here, now, 25:41.650 --> 25:44.130 for the time being, bracketed. 25:44.130 --> 25:46.590 What is this dream about though? 25:46.588 --> 25:51.028 Well it's a dream of a woman, and the Italian text 25:51.026 --> 25:55.006 plays--since this is a dream about two women, 25:55.009 --> 25:58.269 two modes of being, two choices. 25:58.269 --> 26:03.039 It's almost as if he were--he isn't, but you know this is the 26:03.036 --> 26:06.286 mythography of Hercules, as they call him, 26:06.292 --> 26:08.282 at the crossing road. 26:08.278 --> 26:10.308 He had to choose between vice and virtue, 26:10.308 --> 26:15.228 but Hercules has an easy time because he's always going to be 26:15.230 --> 26:19.470 right: in thinking mythography, if you go to the right then you 26:19.472 --> 26:21.392 really have-- by going toward virtue, 26:21.394 --> 26:24.214 left and right, being dexterous rather than 26:24.211 --> 26:27.851 sinister, the idea of the left being bad. 26:27.848 --> 26:30.868 Here we don't have that, here's two women, 26:30.866 --> 26:34.986 but the language of the poem distinguishes very carefully 26:34.988 --> 26:36.238 between them. 26:36.240 --> 26:40.400 One is a femmina, there is materiality and even a 26:40.397 --> 26:43.117 kind of animal sense of the word, 26:43.118 --> 26:46.268 and when the other woman appears, she's called a 26:46.272 --> 26:50.762 donna; donna is the Italian 26:50.757 --> 26:57.837 word from domina, the lady is called a holy lady, 26:57.838 --> 27:04.148 I guess, "lady holy and alert," etc. 27:04.150 --> 27:09.820 She is--this woman, she crystallizes what we would 27:09.817 --> 27:13.747 call the aesthetics of the ugly. 27:13.750 --> 27:18.260 We're always talking about the beauty and the idea that beauty 27:18.260 --> 27:21.810 brings about a kind of revelation of love and the 27:21.810 --> 27:24.400 pleasure that goes with beauty. 27:24.400 --> 27:30.030 In fact, one can say that love--no?--this is a Platonic 27:30.034 --> 27:36.194 way of understanding love has always a hunger for beauty. 27:36.190 --> 27:40.100 The conventional way of thinking about aesthetics is to 27:40.096 --> 27:42.986 imagine beautiful proportionate forms. 27:42.990 --> 27:45.440 Here, Dante is giving exactly the opposite, 27:45.442 --> 27:47.022 an aesthetic of the ugly. 27:47.019 --> 27:51.159 But an ugly which is not static and somehow is--experiences 27:51.157 --> 27:52.297 metamorphosis. 27:52.298 --> 27:55.058 In fact, look what happens, she is "stammering, 27:55.058 --> 27:58.378 cross-eyed, and crooked on her feet," she is the 27:58.375 --> 28:02.225 anti-Beatrice by-- obviously, "with maimed 28:02.233 --> 28:04.823 hands and sallow hue." 28:04.818 --> 28:08.488 Now he changes: from the dreamer as an object, 28:08.488 --> 28:12.318 the dreamer becomes a subject, "I." 28:12.318 --> 28:13.568 You see that, from ".. 28:13.570 --> 28:14.630 .came to me..." 28:14.630 --> 28:18.730 and then, "I gazed at her, and as the soul revives cold 28:18.731 --> 28:22.211 limbs benumbed by the night, so my look..." 28:22.210 --> 28:27.830 His desires transform this image, and from the ugly image 28:27.825 --> 28:32.045 that it was, it becomes now instead invested 28:32.050 --> 28:36.440 with attributes of attractiveness and "colored 28:36.440 --> 28:39.780 her wan features as love desires," 28:39.776 --> 28:41.616 as love prompts. 28:41.618 --> 28:44.518 Then this is what--we still don't understand who she is. 28:44.519 --> 28:46.799 "When she had her speech thus set free, 28:46.798 --> 28:50.648 she began to sing so that it would have been hard for me to 28:50.648 --> 28:52.638 turn my mind from her." 28:52.640 --> 28:56.220 The first temptation that we know that--the vehicle of the 28:56.223 --> 28:57.863 temptation--is the song. 28:57.858 --> 28:59.828 This is also, and primarily, 28:59.827 --> 29:01.427 a poetic temptation. 29:01.430 --> 29:05.420 A certain way of understanding poetry, a kind of even 29:05.424 --> 29:07.734 meretricious form of poetry. 29:07.730 --> 29:08.680 What does she say? 29:08.680 --> 29:14.710 She brings to center stage the myth of Ulysses, 29:14.712 --> 29:22.062 which is by now as you know, is the steady temptation for 29:22.057 --> 29:23.367 Dante. 29:23.368 --> 29:26.778 It's the point of reference: to what extent is my own 29:26.782 --> 29:30.922 journey that I believe is taking place under the aegis of divine 29:30.919 --> 29:33.859 providence, to what extent is it a form of 29:33.863 --> 29:34.813 transgression? 29:34.808 --> 29:38.418 A way of going beyond boundaries, of breaking down all 29:38.422 --> 29:42.922 limits, because after all that's what Ulysses did in Canto XXVI. 29:42.920 --> 29:46.610 And Dante knows where he has placed him, but he cannot get 29:46.608 --> 29:50.168 him out of his mind because Ulysses stands for something 29:50.167 --> 29:51.007 powerful. 29:51.009 --> 29:55.939 What he stands for is the idea that there is no knowledge worth 29:55.942 --> 30:00.162 having which is not connected with transgressions, 30:00.160 --> 30:04.540 which is not connected with breaking down all barriers and 30:04.535 --> 30:05.605 limitations. 30:05.608 --> 30:10.518 In a way, because Dante doesn't do these things accidentally, 30:10.519 --> 30:13.209 when he comes to Canto XXVI of Paradise, 30:13.210 --> 30:16.660 he will see Adam, and there is another who is for 30:16.664 --> 30:18.174 him, without a doubt, 30:18.174 --> 30:20.504 a poet, because he's the name giver. 30:20.500 --> 30:22.190 He is the name giver of the world. 30:22.190 --> 30:24.970 He is the one who brings the world into being through 30:24.971 --> 30:25.561 language. 30:25.558 --> 30:28.748 And when Dante meets Adam, there will be some interesting 30:28.750 --> 30:31.030 details that we can talk about there, 30:31.028 --> 30:35.278 but I can anticipate this for you: Adam is the one who had 30:35.281 --> 30:39.611 understood transgression and that transgression though, 30:39.608 --> 30:41.308 for Adam, appears as a sort of growth. 30:41.308 --> 30:44.478 It's not a fall, for Dante, it's a growth. 30:44.480 --> 30:48.010 It's a growth and understanding other types of limitations 30:48.009 --> 30:51.599 because we cannot just say that we tear down all limits; 30:51.598 --> 30:53.918 we tear down some limits in our experience. 30:53.920 --> 31:00.370 Adam tears down and eats of the fruit of the tree that had been 31:00.369 --> 31:04.219 forbidden for him, like a good son. 31:04.220 --> 31:07.040 The Father says, don't eat it and he goes and 31:07.041 --> 31:11.021 eats it, and thence he eats it, he grows into a human being. 31:11.019 --> 31:15.129 He discovers that the world is not for him to be as a child, 31:15.132 --> 31:18.342 that he has to have other experiences of death, 31:18.337 --> 31:20.427 of maturity, of work, etc. 31:20.430 --> 31:23.960 There are ways in which we have to understand this idea of 31:23.961 --> 31:27.561 breaking limits in a different way from maybe the way I may 31:27.555 --> 31:29.285 have conveyed it to you. 31:29.288 --> 31:30.598 In other words, Dante, here, 31:30.598 --> 31:33.458 is thinking of Ulysses and anticipates the story of Adam. 31:33.460 --> 31:37.660 The great temptation for Dante is to believe that he too--his 31:37.664 --> 31:41.454 journey is a journey that reenacts Ulysses' journey. 31:41.450 --> 31:45.140 The siren--that's what she's telling him--what she's telling 31:45.143 --> 31:47.213 him is, 'I made Ulysses happy.' 31:47.210 --> 31:51.030 It's a lie, because we do know that Ulysses never really 31:51.028 --> 31:55.678 stopped off the island of Capri in whose Grotto where the siren, 31:55.680 --> 31:59.470 is mythologically said to reside. 31:59.470 --> 32:02.740 We do know that he did listen to the song of the siren; 32:02.740 --> 32:05.350 he made sure that his companions would not, 32:05.351 --> 32:07.031 and he had himself bound. 32:07.028 --> 32:11.038 Here it is again, bound to the mast of the ship. 32:11.038 --> 32:15.978 There is a transgression and a binding going on at the same 32:15.982 --> 32:16.582 time. 32:16.578 --> 32:19.498 As I said--at any rate, she lies about, 32:19.500 --> 32:23.630 "I turned Ulysses, eager on his way to my song, 32:23.630 --> 32:26.860 and he who dwells with me," so the first-- 32:26.858 --> 32:31.398 the other lie or the extension of the lie is that the siren is 32:31.404 --> 32:35.284 making false promises of happiness to the dreamer. 32:35.279 --> 32:39.679 What she's saying is, you stay here with me and I am 32:39.681 --> 32:42.531 the end of all that you desire. 32:42.529 --> 32:45.319 I am going to give you all the pleasures that you want, 32:45.316 --> 32:47.536 and therefore, your journey may very well be 32:47.535 --> 32:47.995 over. 32:48.000 --> 32:51.050 If you are weary of the road, this is the place where you 32:51.048 --> 32:51.808 should stop. 32:51.808 --> 32:54.128 We have another figure that emerges. 32:54.130 --> 32:57.270 Clearly, the antagonist of the siren, 32:57.269 --> 33:00.129 we don't know who she is, we'll find out very quickly in 33:00.134 --> 33:02.744 Canto XXX and XXXI, because the same scene will be 33:02.740 --> 33:04.740 re-enacted with the arrival of Beatrice. 33:04.740 --> 33:10.360 We imagine that here too, we have force to imagine, 33:10.361 --> 33:13.961 that here too she is Beatrice. 33:13.960 --> 33:17.950 "Her lips were not yet closed again when a lady holy 33:17.950 --> 33:21.010 and alert," a woman in the sense of not 33:21.013 --> 33:24.153 femmina, "appeared beside me to put 33:24.153 --> 33:25.153 her to confusion. 33:25.150 --> 33:27.090 'O Virgil, Virgil, who is this?' she said with 33:27.085 --> 33:28.585 anger" and he came with her. 33:28.588 --> 33:31.528 What is the difference between them, between these two women? 33:31.528 --> 33:33.988 They are two different forms of poetry. 33:33.990 --> 33:37.910 Now we understand why Dante had to be talking about the 33:37.913 --> 33:42.343 imagination all along, because this is really what 33:42.335 --> 33:48.025 will introduce him to the stakes in claiming to be a poet. 33:48.029 --> 33:50.009 This is what he's been talking about-- 33:50.009 --> 33:52.379 the actual faculty of himself as a poet, 33:52.380 --> 33:56.940 and the cantos that will come, XXI, XXII to XXVI and XXVII 33:56.940 --> 34:00.940 constitute the most important segment about ways of 34:00.940 --> 34:05.330 understanding literary history, literary tradition, 34:05.326 --> 34:09.846 or the place of originality within that particular history 34:09.847 --> 34:10.877 and so on. 34:10.880 --> 34:14.120 We are going to enter the world of poetry more directly. 34:14.119 --> 34:18.069 So they are two different women; they speak two different voices. 34:18.070 --> 34:22.760 One sweet, meretricious and false, but a sweet song; 34:22.760 --> 34:26.680 the other one very harsh, who says the journey is not 34:26.681 --> 34:27.211 over. 34:27.210 --> 34:32.220 One forecloses the journey of--and the quest of Dante. 34:32.219 --> 34:35.019 Be like Ulysses, I know that you want to be like 34:35.016 --> 34:38.756 Ulysses, you can stay here with me, and I am the end of all your 34:38.764 --> 34:40.494 journeys and your quests. 34:40.489 --> 34:43.169 The other one is claiming exactly the opposite. 34:43.170 --> 34:45.280 The journey has to continue. 34:45.280 --> 34:49.830 These two types of songs, the song of the siren is sweet, 34:49.831 --> 34:54.061 which has also the stench of death attached to it. 34:54.059 --> 34:56.569 The stench of the decomposition of her body, 34:56.570 --> 34:59.590 and on the other hand, a journey by this austere 34:59.590 --> 35:01.840 voice, the voice of--maybe the voice 35:01.842 --> 35:05.282 of love, the voice of harshness, 35:05.277 --> 35:12.607 just the language of sweetness is that of love as an ongoing 35:12.610 --> 35:13.730 quest. 35:13.730 --> 35:15.180 That's what she's saying. 35:15.179 --> 35:18.119 Two forms of love, two forms of poetry, 35:18.123 --> 35:19.753 two types of women. 35:19.750 --> 35:23.780 The scene, in case you are interested in this--as many of 35:23.782 --> 35:28.032 you I'm sure have thought about it--literally are stages. 35:28.030 --> 35:31.910 The scene at the beginning of The Consolation of 35:31.911 --> 35:37.241 Philosophy of Boethius, which in turn is thinking about 35:37.239 --> 35:41.299 the Book X of the Republic by Plato: 35:41.302 --> 35:46.722 the idea of the place of love and the place of poetry and 35:46.721 --> 35:48.271 philosophy. 35:48.269 --> 35:50.369 Dante changes that tradition. 35:50.369 --> 35:53.389 This is not just poetry versus philosophy; 35:53.389 --> 35:55.859 it's two different types of poetry. 35:55.860 --> 36:00.240 Poetry can be also a philosophical poetry. 36:00.239 --> 36:05.079 Poetry can be meretricious and poetry can be also the sort of 36:05.077 --> 36:09.507 rigorous, severe form of investigation of oneself in the 36:09.512 --> 36:10.322 world. 36:10.320 --> 36:13.070 Two different types of poetry, two different types of loves, 36:13.072 --> 36:14.522 two different types of women. 36:14.519 --> 36:16.559 Which of the two is better? 36:16.559 --> 36:20.669 How can we go on deciding that one is better than the other? 36:20.670 --> 36:24.470 Is there an objective pattern, an objective criterion, 36:24.469 --> 36:28.479 by which we can say Beatrice, is actually better than the 36:28.483 --> 36:29.203 siren? 36:29.199 --> 36:34.369 Does Dante--is Dante aware of this idea of--yes, 36:34.373 --> 36:39.113 and the reason is going to be the following, 36:39.106 --> 36:43.506 very simple: the avoidance of death. 36:43.510 --> 36:47.710 The siren is the figure that stands for death. 36:47.710 --> 36:51.750 Underneath the pleasures of her language, there is a stench that 36:51.750 --> 36:54.380 emanates from underneath that allegory. 36:54.380 --> 36:59.770 Dante sees the danger of closing and the danger of making 36:59.773 --> 37:03.483 the here and now, and the limitations of the here 37:03.476 --> 37:05.946 and now, and the limitations of that 37:05.954 --> 37:08.004 song the end of his journey. 37:08.000 --> 37:12.450 It's really a choice between an open-ended quest and the 37:12.452 --> 37:14.642 foreclosure of the siren. 37:14.639 --> 37:19.439 This is the only way in which you can objectively believe that 37:19.443 --> 37:23.783 there is a hierarchy between these two loves and between 37:23.775 --> 37:25.345 these two women. 37:25.349 --> 37:31.199 We move to Canto XXI and XXII, but I'm wondering if I 37:31.195 --> 37:37.485 shouldn't take a few questions here about this canto, 37:37.489 --> 37:41.309 or any other problems, before we move onto something a 37:41.309 --> 37:44.599 little bit more-- a little bit different, 37:44.599 --> 37:48.269 more classical: the encounter between Statius 37:48.271 --> 37:49.441 and Virgil. 37:49.440 --> 37:54.940 Let me see if there are some questions now about this phase, 37:54.940 --> 37:58.950 these cantos, or would you like to--me to go 37:58.947 --> 38:03.327 on and then maybe we can come back to them? 38:03.329 --> 38:06.249 Student: Are we supposed to draw a connection 38:06.251 --> 38:08.331 between Casella and anti-Purgatory? 38:08.329 --> 38:10.139 Prof: Very good. 38:10.139 --> 38:11.159 Say again? 38:11.159 --> 38:13.439 Student: Are we supposed to draw a connection 38:13.443 --> 38:14.853 between Casella and the siren? 38:14.849 --> 38:16.919 Prof: The question is excellent. 38:16.920 --> 38:22.050 Are we supposed to draw some connection between this scene 38:22.050 --> 38:26.460 and the scene of Casella in Canto II, above all of 38:26.460 --> 38:27.720 Purgatory? 38:27.719 --> 38:30.679 I call it excellent, because I agree you are 38:30.679 --> 38:34.329 supposed to--and it's the reappearance under different 38:34.329 --> 38:36.669 guises of the same temptation. 38:36.670 --> 38:41.420 How the aesthetic can become both a way of gathering people 38:41.418 --> 38:42.728 around itself. 38:42.730 --> 38:45.280 That's the famous story of Casella, 38:45.280 --> 38:49.450 the power of the song just collects, 38:49.449 --> 38:53.709 gathers, but at the same time it induces us all to 38:53.713 --> 38:57.983 forgetfulness of whatever purposes those souls are 38:57.978 --> 39:01.458 supposed to entertain and carry out. 39:01.460 --> 39:06.670 The difference of course is that it's the same story here 39:06.670 --> 39:10.860 now, the difference is not between, let's say, 39:10.858 --> 39:15.418 Casella and others with the language of Cato. 39:15.420 --> 39:17.880 Here it's more an autobio--directly, 39:17.880 --> 39:21.610 we are moved into the consciousness of the pilgrim. 39:21.610 --> 39:25.490 We have entered this--as deep as we can into his unconscious 39:25.489 --> 39:25.949 mind. 39:25.949 --> 39:29.649 This is the moment of what--he comes to an amazing 39:29.650 --> 39:31.010 self-revelation. 39:31.010 --> 39:36.360 The story of Casella had the ring of a public discourse: 39:36.358 --> 39:41.318 poetry as a public act, gathering a number of people 39:41.318 --> 39:42.678 around it. 39:42.679 --> 39:44.949 So this is very good. 39:44.949 --> 39:46.819 That's--thank you for mentioning that. 39:46.820 --> 39:50.450 By the way, I don't know that I--we never probably read it, 39:50.449 --> 39:53.759 but if you read the beginning, I think I read it in Italian 39:57.188 --> 39:59.958 song, but the beginning of Canto 39:59.960 --> 40:04.700 XVIII also that moment of the nostalgia for the safety of 40:04.697 --> 40:09.547 home, the weariness of--the evening 40:09.547 --> 40:11.097 song, etc. 40:11.099 --> 40:16.329 That represents another version of the same kind of dilemma with 40:16.327 --> 40:19.147 which the pilgrim is confronted. 40:19.150 --> 40:24.030 40:24.030 --> 40:28.710 Okay, we can come back to some of this. 40:28.710 --> 40:35.570 We move into this segment of the poem: XXI, 40:35.572 --> 40:44.402 XXII going through XXIII, XXIV, which really has poetry 40:44.396 --> 40:49.296 now as the subject matter. 40:49.300 --> 40:53.740 Dante begins with, let's say, the classical 40:53.740 --> 40:55.010 tradition. 40:55.010 --> 40:59.260 The relationship between an encounter that takes place, 40:59.260 --> 41:01.920 wherein they, in the world of avarice and 41:01.920 --> 41:05.790 prodigality, the encounter between Statius 41:05.791 --> 41:06.981 and Virgil. 41:06.980 --> 41:12.300 As you know Statius views himself as a disciple of Virgil, 41:12.300 --> 41:16.780 and in many ways he challenges Virgil's ideology, 41:16.780 --> 41:18.740 Virgil's thought. 41:18.739 --> 41:22.049 Whereas Virgil can go on writing a poem, 41:22.050 --> 41:24.510 the Aeneid and the Eclogues, 41:24.510 --> 41:29.510 which are about the pastoral world, 41:29.510 --> 41:31.820 or the Georgics, this world about the 41:31.822 --> 41:35.082 cultivation of the earth, where Virgil appears at his 41:35.076 --> 41:36.236 most anti-Orphic. 41:36.239 --> 41:40.869 He distinguishes and distances himself from the traditional of 41:40.873 --> 41:44.573 Orpheus, the poet of mad love who 41:44.567 --> 41:49.327 descends into the depths of Hades and, 41:49.329 --> 41:54.899 of course, is waylaid by the mad love for Eurydices-- 41:54.900 --> 41:57.610 the way of conquering death through the song. 41:57.610 --> 42:02.310 He believes that through--by singing he can bend the laws of 42:02.311 --> 42:05.421 death and therefore gain immortality. 42:05.420 --> 42:12.200 Virgil opposes the world of work, the world of mature-- 42:12.199 --> 42:16.949 the responsible world of Aeneas, the hero who is so 42:16.945 --> 42:22.555 divided against himself, and yet manages to always find 42:22.556 --> 42:26.716 his way around in this kind of wriggly, 42:26.719 --> 42:30.299 erratic path of his epic. 42:30.300 --> 42:34.390 Statius counters Virgil. 42:34.389 --> 42:37.669 Statius writes the Thebaid, he writes another-- 42:37.670 --> 42:39.810 which he never finishes--another little epic, 42:39.809 --> 42:42.429 called the Achilleid, a story about Achilles, 42:42.429 --> 42:43.839 but it's only a fragment. 42:43.840 --> 42:47.490 He writes the Thebaid, which really goes against those 42:47.485 --> 42:48.635 claims of Virgil. 42:48.639 --> 42:53.339 He retrieves--makes a conjunction between tragedy and 42:53.335 --> 42:57.195 the epic, the world of Jocasta and 42:57.195 --> 43:01.935 Oedipus, the monstrosity of that world, 43:01.940 --> 43:05.400 the world of Polyneices and the Eteocles, 43:05.400 --> 43:10.140 the world of Antigone, cast as a kind of nightmarish 43:10.135 --> 43:10.875 world. 43:10.880 --> 43:15.400 It's literally the most psychological of these epics, 43:15.398 --> 43:19.658 the wars that happen in the mind, and this idea of 43:19.657 --> 43:23.827 monstrosity of human fate and human desires. 43:23.829 --> 43:27.689 These are the two worlds that Dante now wants to bring 43:27.686 --> 43:31.466 together in this little epyllion, I would call it. 43:31.469 --> 43:33.059 "Epyllion" is a Greek word meaning a 43:33.061 --> 43:35.741 'little epic,' that is to say, a transcription of two epic 43:35.742 --> 43:38.322 texts gathered into one, into a lyrical form. 43:38.320 --> 43:42.640 He has a tough task because what he wants to show is the 43:42.641 --> 43:47.521 possibility of harmonizing the two of them and he shows how the 43:47.516 --> 43:50.656 two of them really talk as friends, 43:50.659 --> 43:54.269 friends across time of course. 43:54.268 --> 43:59.898 Statius lives around the year 70 A.D., Virgil dies in the year 43:59.898 --> 44:00.358 19. 44:00.360 --> 44:04.680 And now they are friends because poetry has managed-- 44:04.679 --> 44:10.169 their poetry has made them--the poetry of Virgil has made them 44:10.173 --> 44:15.403 friends and Statius is a sort of classical version of Dante 44:15.398 --> 44:16.478 himself. 44:16.480 --> 44:19.300 Dante is the disciple of Virgil and so was Statius, 44:19.297 --> 44:21.267 so he has to bring them together. 44:21.268 --> 44:23.908 But it's not a question of making them agree, 44:23.909 --> 44:26.489 only because they had two different visions, 44:26.489 --> 44:29.849 that in and of itself may not be all that difficult. 44:29.849 --> 44:35.849 Statius is very skeptical about the Empire, Virgil is not all 44:35.849 --> 44:37.549 that skeptical. 44:37.550 --> 44:40.800 It's possible to read the Aeneid and see that there 44:40.795 --> 44:44.435 is a lot of ambiguity in the way in which he talks about Augustus 44:44.440 --> 44:47.730 and the Empire, but he's basically writing the 44:47.726 --> 44:51.156 epic that justifies the ideology of the Empire. 44:51.159 --> 44:53.779 The real difficulty between them is that Dante is-- 44:53.780 --> 44:56.360 the real difficulty and challenge for Dante-- 44:56.360 --> 45:01.490 is that he has to try to understand how Statius has 45:01.494 --> 45:04.994 tried-- to adjust Statius' vision of 45:04.987 --> 45:08.927 monstrosity to some of idea of the sacred. 45:08.929 --> 45:10.629 This is the real challenge. 45:10.630 --> 45:15.860 This is the difference that Dante has from the classical 45:15.858 --> 45:16.618 world. 45:16.619 --> 45:18.879 How do we understand the sacred? 45:18.880 --> 45:22.730 In what way is it possible to use Statius, Virgil, 45:22.728 --> 45:27.198 as he already did with Cato, who is by the way the hero of 45:27.204 --> 45:30.084 Lucan; a third poet of this epic 45:30.081 --> 45:34.101 tradition, Virgil, Lucan, Statius--is it possible 45:34.096 --> 45:39.446 to see in these texts of Statius the seeds of something good? 45:39.449 --> 45:48.289 How can we build anything good out of this vision of heroes and 45:48.293 --> 45:55.713 characters who fornicate with their own fantasies? 45:55.710 --> 46:00.250 Who cannot really get out of their minds, who just 46:00.251 --> 46:05.351 are--discover their own unchanging submission to a force 46:05.349 --> 46:08.409 that transcends them to fate. 46:08.409 --> 46:11.879 It's really absolutely a different world view from the 46:11.880 --> 46:13.060 world of Virgil. 46:13.059 --> 46:17.449 Let me just go on a little bit with XXI, 46:17.449 --> 46:22.479 I'll just start talking first of all with-- 46:22.480 --> 46:33.520 Dante begins with an allusion to this natural thirst, 46:33.518 --> 46:37.948 which is this world of--the natural thirst for knowledge. 46:37.949 --> 46:40.639 It's really much the world of the Banquet, 46:40.639 --> 46:42.039 the world of Aristotle. 46:42.039 --> 46:48.609 We have this incredible thirst for knowledge and then this 46:48.610 --> 46:52.300 figure called Statius appears. 46:52.300 --> 46:59.170 We are also being told here that nature, the natural world 46:59.173 --> 47:02.313 is mysteriously shaking. 47:02.309 --> 47:05.609 There's an earthquake, because every time that a soul 47:05.610 --> 47:08.660 gets liberated from the purgatorial experience of 47:08.657 --> 47:11.747 expiation, this purification and 47:11.748 --> 47:17.648 expiation, then the mountain trembles and Statius can go on 47:17.652 --> 47:23.562 with them up to the Garden of Eden and then Statius reveals 47:23.557 --> 47:28.137 himself and he will say around line 60, 47:28.139 --> 47:32.289 "And I, who have lain in this pain five 47:32.286 --> 47:37.106 hundred years and more," Statius speaking, 47:37.110 --> 47:41.110 "felt but now my will free for a better threshold, 47:41.110 --> 47:44.130 therefore thou didst feel the earthquake and hear the devout 47:44.132 --> 47:47.002 spirits through the mountain render praises to the Lord-- 47:47.001 --> 47:47.771 soon." 47:47.768 --> 47:49.808 The resurrection has taken place. 47:49.809 --> 47:54.209 This is going to be the resurrection of Statius and 47:54.208 --> 47:54.998 Virgil. 47:55.000 --> 47:57.250 It's Statius, but also Virgil, 47:57.253 --> 47:59.043 and their own vision. 47:59.039 --> 48:04.049 So he goes on describing himself, "In the time when 48:04.050 --> 48:06.740 the good Titus, the emperor," 48:06.735 --> 48:10.205 he's evoking the time of the-- he's recalling the time of the 48:10.208 --> 48:13.318 destruction of the temple in Jerusalem at a time when the 48:13.324 --> 48:15.994 good Titus, "by help with the King 48:15.985 --> 48:18.755 most high avenged," means justice, 48:18.760 --> 48:21.620 divine, the mysteries of justice, "the wounds from 48:21.621 --> 48:24.751 which pour the blood sold by Judas,' replied the spirit, 48:24.750 --> 48:28.920 'I bore yonder the name that most endures and honors most, 48:28.920 --> 48:32.170 famous indeed, but still without faith." 48:32.170 --> 48:36.710 Statius a pagan, really born again, 48:36.708 --> 48:44.448 this is the born again pagan that appears in this canto. 48:44.449 --> 48:50.439 "So sweet was my spirit of song that Rome drew me," 48:50.443 --> 48:53.243 it's an interesting image. 48:53.239 --> 48:57.309 It's really speaking of Rome having a kind of power that 48:57.313 --> 49:00.283 usually will lead with love, with desire, 49:00.275 --> 49:01.975 the pull of desire. 49:01.980 --> 49:07.040 Rome brought him to it, to herself, "a Toulousan, 49:07.038 --> 49:12.378 to itself and there I was worthy to have my brows adorned 49:12.382 --> 49:13.912 with myrtle. 49:13.909 --> 49:17.249 Men yonder still speak my name, which is Statius; 49:17.250 --> 49:20.910 and I sang of Thebes and then of great Achilles, 49:20.914 --> 49:24.894 but fell by the way with the second burden." 49:24.889 --> 49:27.459 He could never complete the second text. 49:27.460 --> 49:30.240 Now look at the way he speaks about poetry; 49:30.239 --> 49:34.579 he speaks through sparks, as a kind of fire. 49:34.579 --> 49:40.219 "The sparks that kindled the fire in me were from the 49:40.224 --> 49:43.594 divine flame, the divine flame from which 49:43.585 --> 49:46.015 more than a thousand have been lit-- 49:46.019 --> 49:50.779 I mean the Aeneid"-- That's already--poetry now is 49:50.784 --> 49:52.814 invested with power. 49:52.809 --> 49:58.229 The power to light the fire in the readers and in its 49:58.233 --> 50:04.703 followers, "which was in poetry my mother and my nurse; 50:04.699 --> 50:09.829 without it I had not weighed a drachm and to have lived yonder, 50:09.829 --> 50:13.379 when Virgil lived I would have contented to a sun more than I 50:13.380 --> 50:16.460 was due before coming forth from banishment." 50:16.460 --> 50:19.820 There are two metaphors to speak of poetry, 50:19.820 --> 50:25.050 one is that of the sparks of fire, and the second one is that 50:25.054 --> 50:30.364 of nourishing the inner hunger, mother and nurse. 50:30.360 --> 50:35.290 It's nursing--the nursing of its readers so a great 50:35.286 --> 50:40.896 acknowledgement of a master, without his knowledge that it 50:40.902 --> 50:44.552 is Virgil to whom he is speaking. 50:44.550 --> 50:49.120 And then Canto XXI which is another image that may remind 50:49.121 --> 50:51.571 you of the story of Casella. 50:51.570 --> 50:56.210 Statius reveals--Dante reveals Statius identity, 50:56.210 --> 51:00.520 Virgil's identity to Statius, and they try to-- 51:00.518 --> 51:03.838 the two of them try to embrace--"Already he was 51:03.835 --> 51:07.275 bending to embrace," lines 130 and following, 51:07.280 --> 51:10.080 "my Teacher's feet; but he said to him, 51:10.079 --> 51:13.819 'Brother do not so, for thou art a shade and a 51:13.822 --> 51:15.572 shade thou seest.' 51:15.570 --> 51:18.680 And he rising: 'Now thou canst understand the 51:18.677 --> 51:22.137 measure of the love that burns in me for thee, 51:22.139 --> 51:26.149 when I forget our emptiness and treat shades as solid 51:26.152 --> 51:27.312 things." 51:27.309 --> 51:33.319 A mistake that has been made before and a mistake that I 51:33.315 --> 51:39.865 think is meant to convey the claims or the illusions of poets 51:39.867 --> 51:46.417 to believe that there is some kind of solidity to them, 51:46.420 --> 51:49.910 and not just to their poetry, to their works, 51:49.909 --> 51:55.059 but a solidity to them that this embrace belies. 51:55.059 --> 51:56.269 There's no solidity to them. 51:56.269 --> 51:57.929 There is a kind of emptiness. 51:57.929 --> 52:01.759 There's a sort of distance between the poets and their 52:01.760 --> 52:02.340 works. 52:02.340 --> 52:06.250 This is not going to, I think, interfere very much 52:06.246 --> 52:10.306 because it's the works, the works of art that we are 52:10.311 --> 52:13.821 going to be talking about in Canto XXII. 52:13.820 --> 52:20.220 The two poets now are self--each in acknowledgement of 52:20.219 --> 52:27.949 the other and they go on talking about line 10 and following, 52:27.949 --> 52:37.759 Virgil asks Statius to explain to him why this moral blight 52:37.755 --> 52:43.745 existed in him, why this sin of avarice, 52:43.748 --> 52:46.738 and he says-- this is the passage: 52:46.739 --> 52:48.709 "Love," Canto XXII, 52:48.710 --> 52:52.130 lines 12 and following, "Love kindled by virtue 52:52.132 --> 52:57.772 always kindles another"-- That's the sort of vitality and 52:57.769 --> 52:59.459 power of love. 52:59.460 --> 53:04.360 It's not self-enclosed; it's one that goes on creating 53:04.356 --> 53:06.736 and propagating itself. 53:06.739 --> 53:08.929 It has a generosity of its own. 53:08.929 --> 53:11.959 It has a kind of charitableness of it's, 53:11.960 --> 53:14.010 "if only its flame appear without"-- 53:14.010 --> 53:19.410 So fire and love seem to be conjoined by this common 53:19.414 --> 53:23.264 element, the common element of the power 53:23.260 --> 53:26.460 of propagation or self-perpetuation. 53:26.460 --> 53:29.640 "From the hour, therefore, when Juvenal descended among us 53:29.639 --> 53:33.549 in the LImbo of Hell and made thy affection known to me my 53:33.554 --> 53:37.544 goodwill toward thee was as great as ever held anyone for a 53:37.538 --> 53:40.678 person not seen, so that now these stairs will 53:40.677 --> 53:41.687 seem short to me. 53:41.690 --> 53:43.990 But tell me, and as a friend, 53:43.985 --> 53:48.655 forgive me with too much assurance I slacken the rein, 53:48.659 --> 53:51.629 and as a friend speak with me know-- 53:51.630 --> 53:56.840 how could avarice find a place in thy breast along with so much 53:56.840 --> 54:01.210 wisdom as by thy zeal thou wast filled with?" 54:01.210 --> 54:06.250 This is a passage of some importance. 54:06.250 --> 54:10.860 Because, first of all, the claim of friendship between 54:10.860 --> 54:15.910 Virgil--he's moved by the show of friendship on the part of 54:15.905 --> 54:16.945 Statius. 54:16.949 --> 54:19.349 Let's talk now as friends. 54:19.349 --> 54:23.849 Friendship is an ethical virtue as you know, 54:23.849 --> 54:28.679 in Aristotle's Ethics and for Cicero, 54:28.679 --> 54:31.899 who writes a treatise called On Friendship, 54:31.900 --> 54:35.300 which Dante mentions at the beginning of his philosophical 54:35.302 --> 54:37.242 text, in the belief that friendship 54:37.239 --> 54:40.259 is really the other language the other term for philosophy. 54:40.260 --> 54:43.490 It's the friend and the philosopher that are 54:43.494 --> 54:47.564 interchangeable because there is a love--in friendship, 54:47.557 --> 54:51.017 there is a love of truth that is the idea. 54:51.018 --> 54:55.138 There is some exaggeration on the part of Virgil because there 54:55.135 --> 54:58.905 is really--a friendship implies some kind--some degree of 54:58.913 --> 54:59.793 equality. 54:59.789 --> 55:03.559 You must have--in order to be friends you must have some idea, 55:03.559 --> 55:07.219 because in fact it's usually said that tyrants and slaves are 55:07.215 --> 55:09.465 not capable of love or friendship, 55:09.469 --> 55:13.689 because both--since one is the inversion of the other-- 55:18.336 --> 55:18.986 other. 55:18.989 --> 55:21.149 The slave is, by definition inferior, 55:21.152 --> 55:24.582 the tyrant thinks that he's superior so friendship demands 55:24.577 --> 55:26.137 that kind if equality. 55:26.139 --> 55:29.239 This is a little bit of exaggeration because there is no 55:29.237 --> 55:30.757 equality between Statius. 55:30.760 --> 55:33.820 It's a rhetorical exaggeration of Statius and Virgil. 55:33.820 --> 55:39.870 Virgil is--acknowledges being superior to Statius. 55:39.869 --> 55:43.429 Statius sees himself as a disciple and therefore views 55:43.429 --> 55:46.719 Virgil as superior from a poetic point of view; 55:46.719 --> 55:50.189 from a theological point of view Statius is superior to 55:50.190 --> 55:50.770 Virgil. 55:50.768 --> 55:54.018 Statius is going on to Paradise and Virgil is 55:54.016 --> 55:55.606 going to go back Limbo. 55:55.610 --> 56:01.740 So there is a kind of the push in the direction of wishful 56:01.742 --> 56:05.942 thinking maybe on the part of Virgil. 56:05.940 --> 56:09.250 I must also add that Dante has a kind of-- 56:09.250 --> 56:13.640 some work also to do about--he may be aware that friendship was 56:13.635 --> 56:17.025 never really thought of as a Christian virtue. 56:17.030 --> 56:21.130 It's a classical and pagan virtue, and because it really 56:21.128 --> 56:25.898 confuses--it's the idea a friend is always part of one's soul. 56:25.900 --> 56:28.390 It's really earthbound. 56:28.389 --> 56:34.689 It's an earthbound experience, so it was always the 56:34.690 --> 56:37.840 thought--not Augustine. 56:37.840 --> 56:40.970 Augustine who has a friend Alypius and feels responsible 56:40.974 --> 56:44.544 for Alypius, but by and large--it was this 56:44.536 --> 56:50.316 idea that the friendship could distract the mind from an ascent 56:50.322 --> 56:56.262 to higher and superior ends, paradisiac ecstasies and 56:56.257 --> 56:57.607 pleasures. 56:57.610 --> 57:01.290 Dante has to be aware that there were efforts to 57:01.291 --> 57:03.251 Christianize this idea. 57:03.250 --> 57:05.860 Nonetheless, it brings the conversation 57:05.858 --> 57:09.908 between them back to the earth and they talk as if they were 57:09.909 --> 57:12.999 two friends really meeting in the forum, 57:13.000 --> 57:17.200 in the agora, and chatting about their moral 57:17.197 --> 57:22.077 failings or their own poetic crafts and visions. 57:22.079 --> 57:25.189 How could you find--how could you be so avaricious, 57:25.186 --> 57:28.416 when you are so enlightened in so many other ways? 57:28.420 --> 57:29.360 That's the question. 57:29.360 --> 57:33.800 Statius responds that he's not avaricious and I think that that 57:33.795 --> 57:37.225 adds a great deal about their understandings-- 57:37.230 --> 57:39.380 the misunderstandings of each other-- 57:39.380 --> 57:41.280 but also their understandings of poetry. 57:41.280 --> 57:45.820 He goes on talking about the fact that he is prodigal all the 57:45.820 --> 57:46.350 time. 57:46.349 --> 57:50.019 So that is to say that he--you may remember from Canto VII of 57:50.019 --> 57:52.529 Inferno, the difference between the 57:52.529 --> 57:55.159 avaricious and the sins of prodigality. 57:55.159 --> 58:00.579 Prodigality was a violation of the economy of goods by 58:00.583 --> 58:04.783 devaluing, by getting rid--devaluing them, 58:04.778 --> 58:07.438 not holding onto them. 58:07.440 --> 58:12.320 The avaricious overvalues the goods and tries to heap-- 58:12.320 --> 58:17.200 amass larger quantities of goods, so he goes on really 58:17.195 --> 58:19.775 thinking-- Statius wants to make it clear 58:19.784 --> 58:22.214 for at least 40 lines about the fact that he's-- 58:22.210 --> 58:27.090 he was prodigal and we have to understand why he would say 58:27.090 --> 58:27.690 that. 58:27.690 --> 58:30.160 Then in fact he goes on acknowledging, 58:30.157 --> 58:33.357 once again, Statius, for his moral conversion. 58:33.360 --> 58:36.250 So that's the first thing about what poetry can do. 58:36.250 --> 58:39.770 "Know then that avarice was too far removed from me, 58:39.766 --> 58:42.966 and this excess thousands of moons have punished. 58:42.969 --> 58:46.849 And had it not been that I corrected my ways when I 58:46.847 --> 58:50.367 understood the lines, where as if enraged at human 58:50.367 --> 58:52.667 nature, thou didst cry: "To what, 58:52.670 --> 58:57.060 O cursed hunger for gold, dost thou not drive the 58:57.056 --> 58:59.156 appetite of mortals?' 58:59.159 --> 59:02.679 I should be rolling the weights and know the dismal 59:02.682 --> 59:03.742 jousts." 59:03.739 --> 59:07.369 What he's saying is that he read a passage in Book III of 59:07.369 --> 59:10.919 the Aeneid, the story that we already saw 59:10.918 --> 59:14.578 of Polydorus, who had been killed because 59:14.577 --> 59:20.477 of--they want to rob him of his gold and Statius reached a moral 59:20.478 --> 59:21.788 conversion. 59:21.789 --> 59:26.109 There's a lot we can say about these lines. 59:26.110 --> 59:30.350 First of all, I think this exemplifies how we 59:30.347 --> 59:36.027 actually read and we dismember the integrity of the text. 59:36.030 --> 59:38.340 We take out of a book, out of a passage, 59:38.340 --> 59:45.970 that which we find relevant to us and he takes some lines, 59:45.969 --> 59:49.879 and not only takes some lines from the Book III of the 59:49.882 --> 59:53.262 Aeneid, he also alters their meaning. 59:53.260 --> 1:00:01.090 The original text of Virgil's is exactly the opposite to 1:00:01.088 --> 1:00:09.768 what--why do you not contain the appetite of mortals or sacred 1:00:09.771 --> 1:00:12.621 hunger for gold? 1:00:12.619 --> 1:00:14.119 Which the text translates as 'cursed'-- 1:00:14.119 --> 1:00:17.329 because the word sacred, which Dante is using here, 1:00:17.329 --> 1:00:20.819 why do you not contain, "O sacred fame of 1:00:20.820 --> 1:00:24.080 gold" O sacra fame dell'oro. 1:00:24.079 --> 1:00:27.389 The word "sacred," as you probably know, 1:00:27.394 --> 1:00:30.174 some of you may know, means two things. 1:00:30.170 --> 1:00:33.020 It's the most ambiguous term that you-- 1:00:33.018 --> 1:00:37.338 semantically speaking--because it can describe both that which 1:00:37.342 --> 1:00:40.132 we call the holy, and that which we call the 1:00:40.126 --> 1:00:40.596 profane. 1:00:40.599 --> 1:00:43.339 It joins them together: there's no clear-cut 1:00:43.340 --> 1:00:46.400 distinction between the profanation or blasphemy, 1:00:46.400 --> 1:00:49.460 on the other hand, or the sense of holiness. 1:00:49.460 --> 1:00:53.090 I can understand why my translation, Sinclair, 1:00:53.090 --> 1:00:56.640 my translator, decides to choose the 'cursed' 1:00:56.643 --> 1:01:00.843 instead of call it 'sacred,' for it's the curse. 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:03.730 He's dismembering, he is taking one side 1:01:03.726 --> 1:01:07.496 over--there's a much more complicated version of the 1:01:07.503 --> 1:01:09.283 meaning of the word. 1:01:09.280 --> 1:01:12.970 So that's one thing, but the poetic text of Virgil 1:01:12.972 --> 1:01:17.572 has a moral power over and against Virgil's own intentions. 1:01:17.570 --> 1:01:20.910 We can understand now retrospectively why Dante has to 1:01:20.907 --> 1:01:23.677 distinguish between poets and their works. 1:01:23.679 --> 1:01:27.779 We can read the works regardless of the intentions of 1:01:27.778 --> 1:01:32.818 the authors and we can select or take out of those texts whatever 1:01:32.824 --> 1:01:37.814 we think that we-- however we think that they 1:01:37.806 --> 1:01:45.546 speak to us and then he goes on describing his poetic growth. 1:01:45.550 --> 1:01:51.240 "Now," lines 55, "Now, when thou did sing 1:01:51.244 --> 1:01:54.084 the cruel arms of the double woe of Jocasta," 1:01:54.076 --> 1:01:56.326 the double woe is the two children, 1:01:56.329 --> 1:02:00.449 Eteocles and Polyneices, in the tragic and epic text 1:02:00.447 --> 1:02:04.077 called the Thebaid, "said the singer of the 1:02:04.077 --> 1:02:04.907 Bucolics." 1:02:04.909 --> 1:02:06.949 That's already the opposition. 1:02:06.949 --> 1:02:10.859 Virgil now appears as the author of a pastoral poem, 1:02:10.862 --> 1:02:14.392 the Bucolics, where rivalries are always 1:02:14.391 --> 1:02:16.311 going to be placated. 1:02:16.309 --> 1:02:19.589 The Bucolics of--the pastoral poems of Virgil are 1:02:19.588 --> 1:02:20.958 always about rivalry. 1:02:20.960 --> 1:02:26.730 A rivalry between two shepherds: which of us they ask, 1:02:26.733 --> 1:02:29.243 is the better singer? 1:02:29.239 --> 1:02:30.659 Which of us is the better poet? 1:02:30.659 --> 1:02:34.349 That is always--there's never any tragic outcome. 1:02:34.349 --> 1:02:38.799 There's some uneasiness, some anxiety between in-- 1:02:38.800 --> 1:02:42.070 running through that kind of debate between the poets, 1:02:42.070 --> 1:02:46.420 but it's not the rivalry of Polyneices and Eteocles. 1:02:46.420 --> 1:02:50.290 That's really the difference that Dante is highlighting 1:02:50.286 --> 1:02:51.356 between them. 1:02:51.360 --> 1:02:53.370 And then it continues, "... 1:02:53.369 --> 1:02:59.009 it does not appear by the notes which Clio touches with 1:02:59.014 --> 1:03:05.394 thee," the Bucolics, and on other hand Clio is the 1:03:05.389 --> 1:03:07.479 muse of history. 1:03:07.480 --> 1:03:10.790 So Clio is the muse for history, the world of Statius, 1:03:10.786 --> 1:03:14.276 "that the faith yet made thee faithful without which 1:03:14.280 --> 1:03:16.090 well-doing is not enough. 1:03:16.090 --> 1:03:19.380 If that is so, what sun or what candles 1:03:19.378 --> 1:03:23.878 dispelled thy darkness, so that thereafter thou didst 1:03:23.878 --> 1:03:27.858 lift the sails behind the fisherman?" 1:03:27.860 --> 1:03:30.910 Now we know that what he's really asking, 1:03:30.911 --> 1:03:34.271 in a general way, is the relationship between 1:03:34.268 --> 1:03:35.868 poetry and faith. 1:03:35.869 --> 1:03:40.729 How could Statius--we know how he reached this moral 1:03:40.730 --> 1:03:44.730 conversion, now we have to be told somehow, 1:03:44.733 --> 1:03:48.073 how did he go on finding faith? 1:03:48.070 --> 1:03:50.390 What is the relationship between the two of them? 1:03:50.389 --> 1:03:57.189 Can poetry reveal and lead us onto the world of faith or not? 1:03:57.190 --> 1:04:01.310 Statius has already--that's really the answer that he will 1:04:01.313 --> 1:04:04.573 provide: "And the other answered him, 1:04:04.570 --> 1:04:07.660 'Thou first directed me to Parnassus," 1:04:07.659 --> 1:04:09.499 the mountain of poetry. 1:04:09.500 --> 1:04:12.920 The poetic experience, the poetic apprenticeship, 1:04:12.920 --> 1:04:17.150 is the preamble to the experience of faith-- 1:04:17.150 --> 1:04:19.570 "to drink in its caves"-- 1:04:19.570 --> 1:04:24.800 a metaphor that picks up the natural thirst of the previous 1:04:24.797 --> 1:04:26.847 canto, "to drink in its caves 1:04:26.853 --> 1:04:29.743 and, first, after God enlightens me. 1:04:29.739 --> 1:04:33.809 Thou didst like him that goes by night and carries the light 1:04:33.811 --> 1:04:37.681 behind him and does not help himself but makes wise those 1:04:37.677 --> 1:04:40.367 that follow when thou saidst." 1:04:40.369 --> 1:04:43.989 In a moment we will see he said, but the metaphor is that 1:04:43.989 --> 1:04:47.359 of really-- Virgil is a prophetic voice who 1:04:47.356 --> 1:04:50.606 speaks, but that language he uses like 1:04:50.606 --> 1:04:53.386 the-- a lamp that he carries on his 1:04:53.385 --> 1:04:56.755 back for the benefit of those who follow, 1:04:56.760 --> 1:04:59.440 and himself clearly remains in the dark. 1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:00.460 That's what he said. 1:05:00.460 --> 1:05:04.720 "The age turns new again; justice comes back and the 1:05:04.722 --> 1:05:08.332 primal years of men, and a new race descends from 1:05:08.327 --> 1:05:09.527 heaven." 1:05:09.530 --> 1:05:13.480 This is the famous fourth eclogue of Virgil, 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:18.450 where Virgil is celebrating the birth of a child, 1:05:18.449 --> 1:05:21.349 Pollio, and around this birth of a child, 1:05:21.349 --> 1:05:25.329 he is also talking about the rejuvenation of the world. 1:05:25.329 --> 1:05:28.899 It's an emblem, Pollio's birth is an emblem for 1:05:28.896 --> 1:05:31.916 this Pythagorean vision that he has, 1:05:31.920 --> 1:05:38.010 a vision whereby the world goes through 360,000 years of the 1:05:38.005 --> 1:05:40.445 Golden Age, the Silver Age, 1:05:40.454 --> 1:05:44.284 and so on, and then degrades itself and goes right back to 1:05:44.277 --> 1:05:45.617 where it started. 1:05:45.619 --> 1:05:50.769 A Pythagorean vision of metamorphosis and circulation of 1:05:50.773 --> 1:05:52.183 the universe. 1:05:52.179 --> 1:05:53.949 It's the fourth eclogue. 1:05:53.949 --> 1:05:58.129 Interestingly, this also crystallizes that 1:05:58.128 --> 1:06:03.428 which is the fundamental issue of Virgil's vision. 1:06:03.429 --> 1:06:09.029 The concern with birth, the concern with the fact of 1:06:09.032 --> 1:06:13.462 being born, that the fact of being born has 1:06:13.456 --> 1:06:18.016 within itself the potential to renew the world, 1:06:18.018 --> 1:06:21.558 to effect the world and change the direction of the world. 1:06:21.559 --> 1:06:23.639 And then we know that he will say, 1:06:23.639 --> 1:06:26.289 and I will stop here, because we are coming to the 1:06:26.289 --> 1:06:28.669 end of the period: "Through thee I was a 1:06:28.668 --> 1:06:31.428 poet, through thee Christian; 1:06:31.429 --> 1:06:34.169 but that thou mayst see better what I outline, 1:06:34.168 --> 1:06:36.238 I shall set my hand to color it. 1:06:36.239 --> 1:06:38.569 Already the world was everywhere big," 1:06:38.570 --> 1:06:41.680 pregnant the Italian says, "with the true faith sown 1:06:41.679 --> 1:06:42.789 by the messengers... 1:06:42.789 --> 1:06:44.009 " and so on. 1:06:44.010 --> 1:06:46.740 He's going to talk how the world outside, 1:06:46.744 --> 1:06:50.984 only buttressed and reinforced the message of faith that he had 1:06:50.981 --> 1:06:53.171 found in the fourth eclogue. 1:06:53.170 --> 1:06:56.890 The fourth eclogue is seen as a messianic eclogue, 1:06:56.889 --> 1:07:02.479 but that line that makes the transition from poetry to faith, 1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:04.640 "I was a poet through thee, 1:07:04.639 --> 1:07:07.619 I was a poet, through thee a Christian," 1:07:07.623 --> 1:07:11.363 I think really makes it necessary for us to linger on it 1:07:11.355 --> 1:07:12.775 for a little bit. 1:07:12.780 --> 1:07:16.610 First of all the line has what we call an anaphora, 1:07:16.610 --> 1:07:20.980 "Through thee I was a poet, I was a poet through thee 1:07:20.976 --> 1:07:22.506 Christian." 1:07:22.510 --> 1:07:27.590 This is the same line that says, per te, 1:07:27.585 --> 1:07:32.545 the Italian word line 73, per te poeta fui, 1:07:32.550 --> 1:07:35.310 per te cristiano. 1:07:35.309 --> 1:07:41.319 The anaphora gives continuity to the movement of the line from 1:07:41.315 --> 1:07:43.965 poetry to faith, per te.. 1:07:43.974 --> 1:07:45.554 .per te. 1:07:45.550 --> 1:07:48.190 Nonetheless, if you read this line carefully 1:07:48.190 --> 1:07:51.260 in Italian you see that there is also a caesura. 1:07:51.260 --> 1:07:53.280 You know what I mean by caesura? 1:07:53.280 --> 1:07:57.180 Falling in the middle, a break, per te, 1:07:57.184 --> 1:08:00.054 break, per te cristiano. 1:08:00.050 --> 1:08:04.220 The lines--gives a--has a mobility that seems to promise 1:08:04.215 --> 1:08:07.165 the transition from poetry to faith, 1:08:07.170 --> 1:08:10.970 but at the same time technically, it forces you to 1:08:10.971 --> 1:08:15.161 stop as if there were two discontinuous experiences. 1:08:15.159 --> 1:08:18.609 You cannot quite go from one world of poetry to the one world 1:08:18.606 --> 1:08:19.236 of faith. 1:08:19.238 --> 1:08:22.388 You can go from one world of poetry to one world of faith. 1:08:22.390 --> 1:08:26.670 That ambiguity of poetry is exactly what they are trying to 1:08:26.667 --> 1:08:27.477 retrieve. 1:08:27.479 --> 1:08:33.519 What did I say here today about this issue of Statius and 1:08:33.519 --> 1:08:34.489 Virgil? 1:08:34.488 --> 1:08:39.408 Statius is dealing with the tragedy of birth. 1:08:39.408 --> 1:08:43.578 Virgil deals with, optimistically, 1:08:43.582 --> 1:08:50.792 about the history-making quality of the event of birth. 1:08:50.788 --> 1:08:55.038 That is, at the same time, a desire to establish a sense 1:08:55.042 --> 1:08:56.902 of what is the sacred? 1:08:56.899 --> 1:09:03.579 I will try to discuss with you, later, 1:09:03.578 --> 1:09:08.898 how poetry is now invested with the kind of sacredness, 1:09:08.899 --> 1:09:15.319 the ambiguous sense of the word about the profane and the holy 1:09:15.324 --> 1:09:16.594 within it. 1:09:16.590 --> 1:09:20.850 It's a hybrid, and it's this hybrid that will 1:09:20.846 --> 1:09:25.776 allow Dante to assimilate Statius' vision to his own 1:09:25.782 --> 1:09:30.042 understanding of history and the sacred. 1:09:30.038 --> 1:09:33.298 Let me stop here and see if there are questions. 1:09:33.300 --> 1:09:41.450 1:09:41.449 --> 1:09:44.069 Please. 1:09:44.069 --> 1:09:47.079 Student: It seems like it's more common for Dante to be 1:09:47.079 --> 1:09:49.799 the one to ask the people they meet for their stories. 1:09:49.800 --> 1:09:54.860 Is this the only place that Virgil is the one who asks the 1:09:54.863 --> 1:09:59.043 questions or what is the specific event here? 1:09:59.039 --> 1:10:02.589 Prof: Virgil is the-- the question is, 1:10:02.590 --> 1:10:07.440 it seems that usually it's Dante who interviews the people 1:10:07.435 --> 1:10:11.295 he meets and-- but here in Canto XXI and XXII, 1:10:11.302 --> 1:10:14.042 it's Virgil and is that the case, 1:10:14.038 --> 1:10:16.308 and if it's true why would that be the case? 1:10:16.310 --> 1:10:20.760 The answer is that that's not really true because in the canto 1:10:20.759 --> 1:10:24.329 of Ulysses, it is he who--it is Virgil who speaks, 1:10:24.333 --> 1:10:26.453 you remember, to Ulysses. 1:10:26.448 --> 1:10:28.398 It's Virgil--so it's Virgil and Ulysses. 1:10:28.399 --> 1:10:32.229 It really has more to do with the figures of the classical 1:10:32.229 --> 1:10:34.849 world that seem to be, in this case, 1:10:34.853 --> 1:10:38.773 Virgil seems to be best indicated for Statius as he was 1:10:38.773 --> 1:10:39.793 for Virgil. 1:10:39.788 --> 1:10:44.948 Since you are interested in this aspect of the dramatization 1:10:44.948 --> 1:10:47.498 of the poem, I could mention to you for 1:10:47.502 --> 1:10:49.702 instance there are cantos in Inferno, 1:10:49.698 --> 1:10:53.318 we didn't have a chance to talk about them where the-- 1:10:53.319 --> 1:10:57.589 Virgil would completely abandon--Dante says, 1:10:57.590 --> 1:10:59.500 well you go here, I don't want to be with you, 1:10:59.500 --> 1:11:04.780 you go and on your own carry out this introduction without-- 1:11:04.779 --> 1:11:06.069 I'll wait for you here. 1:11:06.069 --> 1:11:08.679 That happens, for instance, 1:11:08.677 --> 1:11:12.087 in the canto of fraud and usury. 1:11:12.090 --> 1:11:17.390 It is as if Dante had something to better understand on his own 1:11:17.390 --> 1:11:22.480 without Virgil's presence, but usually that is the way in 1:11:22.481 --> 1:11:27.011 which the style of the representation takes place, 1:11:27.010 --> 1:11:31.260 who is most apt in the case of the classical figures, 1:11:31.260 --> 1:11:34.370 the classical poet speaking for a classical character. 1:11:34.369 --> 1:11:44.129 1:11:44.130 --> 1:11:48.820 Student: I wondered if you could comment a little 1:11:48.822 --> 1:11:53.852 further on the significance in Canto XIX of what looks like a 1:11:53.849 --> 1:11:58.289 kind of re-enactment of the Fall of Adam and Eve. 1:11:58.288 --> 1:12:02.398 It's almost as if this woman even in the-- 1:12:02.399 --> 1:12:04.639 Prof: In the dream. 1:12:04.640 --> 1:12:06.470 Student: The siren--yes, in the dream, 1:12:06.470 --> 1:12:11.770 when she brings forth this promise of happiness, 1:12:11.770 --> 1:12:15.220 it's really echoing the promise of Lucifer of this, 1:12:15.220 --> 1:12:17.110 I will make you like God. 1:12:17.109 --> 1:12:23.739 Why is this sort of--why is this theme of sort of the Adam 1:12:23.740 --> 1:12:30.610 theme coming up here in XIX and is there some sort of strand 1:12:30.605 --> 1:12:33.045 that I'm missing? 1:12:33.050 --> 1:12:37.740 Prof: The-- well--the question is that it 1:12:37.742 --> 1:12:42.622 says in Canto XIX, in the dream of the siren, 1:12:42.618 --> 1:12:48.268 there is an echo of the Fall of Adam more than Lucifer, 1:12:48.270 --> 1:12:50.760 I would say, the Fall of Adam. 1:12:50.760 --> 1:12:57.050 Why would there be that--if that's true why would there be 1:12:57.046 --> 1:12:58.366 that echo? 1:12:58.369 --> 1:13:01.039 My answer is, I didn't catch it. 1:13:01.038 --> 1:13:05.678 I never caught this echo of Adam there. 1:13:05.680 --> 1:13:12.320 It's actually the story of the temptation of this woman fish, 1:13:12.319 --> 1:13:15.419 that's what she is, right? 1:13:15.420 --> 1:13:21.550 The siren who wants to induce forgetfulness in the pilgrim; 1:13:21.550 --> 1:13:23.580 it's really a classical figure. 1:13:23.578 --> 1:13:28.788 I would say that--I sort of resist the--hearing here the 1:13:28.793 --> 1:13:34.863 figure of--in the figure of Adam because Adam doesn't really talk 1:13:34.863 --> 1:13:36.573 about falling. 1:13:36.569 --> 1:13:41.249 This is a danger for the pilgrim who-- 1:13:41.250 --> 1:13:47.370 he's dramatizing his sense of yielding, 1:13:47.368 --> 1:13:51.158 surrendering his will to the seduction, 1:13:51.159 --> 1:13:53.269 the seductive song of the siren. 1:13:53.270 --> 1:13:56.990 Adam with--this is a story of love. 1:13:56.988 --> 1:13:59.328 With Adam, the story becomes one of knowledge; 1:13:59.329 --> 1:14:01.699 it's a little bit different. 1:14:01.698 --> 1:14:06.358 There may be echoes, I'm not going to be so firm and 1:14:06.355 --> 1:14:11.555 say no, there is no echo of that but I didn't catch it. 1:14:11.560 --> 1:14:14.400 I didn't feel the necessity for that, actually, 1:14:14.399 --> 1:14:15.509 for my argument. 1:14:15.510 --> 1:14:18.160 Student: Okay, then maybe I'm answering my own 1:14:18.158 --> 1:14:21.488 question here, but wouldn't you say that the 1:14:21.492 --> 1:14:26.032 theme of knowledge and transgression runs through both 1:14:26.029 --> 1:14:30.819 the dream sequence that Dante has and the story of Adam's 1:14:30.823 --> 1:14:31.683 Fall? 1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:38.580 I mean, is there that theme where Ulysses wanted to sort of 1:14:38.582 --> 1:14:43.522 gain this knowledge, this experience of hearing the 1:14:43.520 --> 1:14:46.930 siren's song, right and to gain that 1:14:46.930 --> 1:14:51.130 knowledge he had to sort of transgress. 1:14:51.130 --> 1:14:53.550 Isn't that what the siren represents? 1:14:53.550 --> 1:14:58.280 You say he keeps coming back to this theme of Ulysses-- 1:14:58.279 --> 1:14:59.269 Prof: He does. 1:14:59.270 --> 1:15:00.970 He mentions the story of Ulysses. 1:15:00.970 --> 1:15:02.910 He does mention the story of Ulysses. 1:15:02.908 --> 1:15:04.388 Student: Is that where the Adam connection really comes 1:15:04.390 --> 1:15:04.510 in? 1:15:04.510 --> 1:15:07.600 Because Adam's--ultimately ate the fruit for knowledge. 1:15:07.600 --> 1:15:11.950 Prof: Yeah, well I indicated that the story 1:15:11.947 --> 1:15:16.197 of Adam in Canto XXVI retrospectively illuminates 1:15:16.204 --> 1:15:21.444 what's happening in Canto XXVI of Inferno and that he 1:15:21.439 --> 1:15:25.879 too experienced-- understands knowledge and 1:15:25.881 --> 1:15:29.191 transgression, that they go hand in hand, 1:15:29.185 --> 1:15:32.585 and that it's difficult-- impossible to separate them and 1:15:32.587 --> 1:15:34.117 that's the story of Ulysses. 1:15:34.118 --> 1:15:40.138 Dante does feel that he's--but it's a dangerous temptation for 1:15:40.135 --> 1:15:44.075 him to believe that he's like Ulysses. 1:15:44.078 --> 1:15:47.848 Whereas, he has no problem later in--when he understands 1:15:47.850 --> 1:15:50.460 what the story of Adam is, in thinking, 1:15:50.457 --> 1:15:53.747 in acknowledging that Adam is the arch poet. 1:15:53.750 --> 1:15:57.940 We are all reinventing the world, etc. 1:15:57.939 --> 1:16:01.549 So I would say that there are three figures here: 1:16:01.551 --> 1:16:04.341 Ulysses, Adam, and Dante and--but the 1:16:04.336 --> 1:16:07.476 relation between them is never what one of-- 1:16:07.479 --> 1:16:10.459 full of identification on the part of Dante with either-- 1:16:10.460 --> 1:16:16.640 he comes here approximates them and somehow also pulls away from 1:16:16.643 --> 1:16:17.333 both. 1:16:17.329 --> 1:16:18.799 He's not really Adam. 1:16:18.800 --> 1:16:22.380 He's not the arch poet who names the world, 1:16:22.381 --> 1:16:24.941 and he's not really Ulysses. 1:16:24.939 --> 1:16:29.699 That fear that he may be like Ulysses, which is a more 1:16:29.701 --> 1:16:34.911 dangerous sense that he has, that will continue more openly 1:16:34.912 --> 1:16:36.532 as he goes on. 1:16:36.529 --> 1:16:40.569 The story of Adam is going to be picked up in the Garden of 1:16:40.572 --> 1:16:41.062 Eden. 1:16:41.060 --> 1:16:44.400 The Garden of Eden, of course, that is the idea 1:16:44.395 --> 1:16:48.595 that we lost a garden but Dante does not want to be in that 1:16:48.604 --> 1:16:49.914 garden anyway. 1:16:49.908 --> 1:16:54.918 When he comes to the Garden of Eden, he identifies it with a 1:16:54.918 --> 1:16:58.148 lot of things, really nostalgia for the 1:16:58.145 --> 1:16:59.075 mother. 1:16:59.078 --> 1:17:02.838 He doesn't--he understands that he has to grow up; 1:17:02.840 --> 1:17:04.810 he has to get out of that fantasy. 1:17:04.810 --> 1:17:11.700 I don't know if this is-- Student: What confuses 1:17:11.703 --> 1:17:16.773 me I guess is that the siren here in the dream sequence seems 1:17:16.770 --> 1:17:20.150 to be wanting to halt Dante's quest, 1:17:20.149 --> 1:17:21.039 his journey forward for knowledge. 1:17:21.039 --> 1:17:22.309 Prof: Yes, absolutely. 1:17:22.310 --> 1:17:25.940 Student: Yet, with respect to Ulysses, 1:17:25.939 --> 1:17:28.969 the siren seemed to represent the opposite, 1:17:28.970 --> 1:17:33.370 in the sense that his interaction with her was 1:17:33.373 --> 1:17:39.053 something where he was trying to go past the bounds to gain 1:17:39.051 --> 1:17:43.751 knowledge or gain experience of hearing her. 1:17:43.750 --> 1:17:47.400 I'm trying to draw the connections in my mind for what 1:17:47.400 --> 1:17:51.190 is really Dante trying to tell us with this sequence? 1:17:51.189 --> 1:18:01.089 Why does he go back to this reference to the siren? 1:18:01.090 --> 1:18:02.730 I mean maybe you could just summarize; 1:18:02.729 --> 1:18:06.859 I guess maybe it would just help clear it up what she 1:18:06.862 --> 1:18:10.992 represents to Dante here in Canto XIX versus what she 1:18:10.993 --> 1:18:13.063 represents to Ulysses? 1:18:13.060 --> 1:18:16.080 Prof: Good, what does the siren represent? 1:18:16.078 --> 1:18:18.948 Very briefly, what does the siren represent 1:18:18.952 --> 1:18:20.732 to Dante and to Ulysses? 1:18:20.729 --> 1:18:21.619 What is the difference? 1:18:21.618 --> 1:18:26.478 To Dante, the siren represents the lure of death. 1:18:26.479 --> 1:18:30.639 He understands that beneath that promises of yield to the 1:18:30.641 --> 1:18:34.211 here and now and to my voice there is really-- 1:18:34.210 --> 1:18:38.810 there's a nothingness and he's attracted to that nothingness. 1:18:38.810 --> 1:18:40.690 That's really what it is. 1:18:40.689 --> 1:18:43.269 For Ulysses, she also represents the 1:18:43.265 --> 1:18:47.605 extraordinary enchantment of the song that would lead him to 1:18:47.609 --> 1:18:51.729 death because that's what happens to all those who listen 1:18:51.730 --> 1:18:53.130 to the siren. 1:18:53.130 --> 1:18:57.580 Ulysses wants to hear it and bind himself so that does not 1:18:57.578 --> 1:18:59.998 yield altogether to her call. 1:19:00.000 --> 1:19:02.040 That's how I can put it. 1:19:02.039 --> 1:19:03.349 Thank you. We'll see you. 1:19:03.350 --> 1:19:09.000