WEBVTT 00:01.340 --> 00:03.410 Professor John Merriman: This is all relevant. 00:03.410 --> 00:07.080 What happened at Villiers-le-Bel was that you got 00:07.082 --> 00:09.762 your basic cop car, coming along, 00:09.760 --> 00:12.430 and it wasn't rolling aggressively, 00:12.429 --> 00:16.899 it was about fifty kilometers an hour, and these two young 00:16.903 --> 00:21.833 North-African extraction youths, without helmets, 00:21.829 --> 00:25.109 didn't yield to the car. 00:25.110 --> 00:27.640 They were on a scooter, sort of essentially a 00:27.641 --> 00:30.461 motorcycle, not a big one but a scooter. 00:30.460 --> 00:33.430 And, so, they hit the car on the left side and unfortunately 00:33.431 --> 00:34.641 they were both killed. 00:34.640 --> 00:39.870 And then the police stayed a bit and made calls but the calls 00:39.874 --> 00:43.524 that they made were more, "we have something spinning out 00:43.519 --> 00:46.099 of control," it's not about how are these two kids who--and you 00:46.098 --> 00:47.638 see, they left it there for two 00:47.640 --> 00:49.180 days, they circled it all away. 00:49.180 --> 00:53.080 So, you still see these little guys' tennis shoes and you 00:53.084 --> 00:56.574 see--you can see traces of their having expired. 00:56.570 --> 00:59.780 And, so, Villiers-le-Bel, which is about eighteen 00:59.781 --> 01:02.861 kilometers north of Paris--it's near Roissy, 01:02.859 --> 01:04.979 it's near Sarcelles, where there was a lot of 01:04.983 --> 01:06.723 trouble before, it's near Gonesse; 01:06.719 --> 01:09.749 it's in the Val d'Oise--went up in flames basically, 01:09.748 --> 01:12.658 and unfortunately a lot of people were hurt in the 01:12.658 --> 01:14.638 fighting. And yesterday they burned, 01:14.644 --> 01:17.404 somebody stupidly burned the library, and the library is not 01:17.399 --> 01:19.079 associated with the flics, 01:19.080 --> 01:21.180 with the cops, it's not associated with the 01:21.180 --> 01:24.180 State even, it is the municipal library where lots of kids go 01:24.180 --> 01:26.130 and study in the municipal library. 01:26.129 --> 01:28.069 And, so, this was just la connerie, 01:28.070 --> 01:30.200 this is not possible to do stuff like that. 01:30.200 --> 01:32.290 But, anyway, part of the problem is that 01:32.287 --> 01:35.817 Sarkozy denigrated the people in the suburbs as racaille, 01:35.819 --> 01:40.069 as scum, by implication, that--and was Minister of the 01:40.066 --> 01:42.866 Interior during the big troubles, 01:42.870 --> 01:45.560 a couple of years ago; which I'm going to talk about 01:45.563 --> 01:46.613 on Wednesday, the troubles, 01:46.605 --> 01:48.085 which started in Clichy-sous-Bois. 01:48.090 --> 01:50.180 But there's a lot of--in Toulouse where there had been 01:50.182 --> 01:52.422 trouble two years ago, now it's happening in Toulouse, 01:52.416 --> 01:54.446 too, but I didn't--I'll watch it this afternoon. 01:54.450 --> 01:59.920 It's a problem, it's going to be a big problem 01:59.919 --> 02:02.809 for awhile. And what makes it a little more 02:02.805 --> 02:05.285 scary is that this wasn't an incident, where there have been 02:05.290 --> 02:07.650 incidents where the police are--the police systematically 02:07.648 --> 02:10.168 control people of color, systematically, 02:10.173 --> 02:12.523 in France, systematically. 02:15.381 --> 02:19.201 which is a metro stop famous for the first place that 02:19.196 --> 02:23.086 somebody shot and killed a German officer during Vichy 02:23.085 --> 02:25.355 and--or the Gare de Lyon. 02:25.360 --> 02:28.640 I was in the Gare de Lyon, not the other day but at the 02:28.636 --> 02:31.786 end of November--or for that matter after Sarkozy was 02:31.791 --> 02:34.321 elected; you go to the Gare de Lyon 02:34.323 --> 02:38.353 metro stop and all of a sudden you turn the corner and then 02:38.345 --> 02:42.085 you've got ten policemen there, controlling people. 02:42.090 --> 02:44.910 I've lived--I've spent half my life in France for the last 02:44.908 --> 02:47.768 thirty years. I have never been controlled, 02:47.774 --> 02:49.244 not once, not once. 02:49.240 --> 02:51.200 And I've been with people going through, and you turn the 02:51.195 --> 02:53.355 corner, and all of a sudden you've got all the police there. 02:53.360 --> 02:55.020 And who do they pick out? 02:55.020 --> 02:59.370 They don't pick out whites carrying little academic 02:59.369 --> 03:03.539 briefcases, they pick out everybody, practically, 03:03.544 --> 03:06.854 who is young and who is not white. 03:06.849 --> 03:10.569 And so this rubs people the wrong way, to say the least, 03:10.572 --> 03:14.162 and it's part of the way this works in the suburbs. 03:14.159 --> 03:16.889 And, so, this incident, which involved a police car, 03:16.887 --> 03:20.097 was not coming in and sort of saying "up against the mall MF" 03:20.096 --> 03:22.506 and all this but, "let's see your papers." 03:22.509 --> 03:24.729 Because that's what happens, and I've seen that happen. 03:24.729 --> 03:27.609 It was just unfortunately these two policemen--who weren't doing 03:27.612 --> 03:30.362 anything wrong, they were just--it was a banal 03:30.363 --> 03:34.253 trip through a banal suburb-- happened to hit these two kids 03:34.245 --> 03:37.925 who were not wearing helmets and so they were killed. 03:37.930 --> 03:40.920 But this is--who knows what's going to happen in this. 03:40.919 --> 03:44.059 But this is part of when you see La Haine, 03:44.063 --> 03:47.803 hate, you see--that's the best translation simply of it is 03:47.795 --> 03:50.855 hatred or hate. And to understand how people in 03:50.856 --> 03:54.076 the suburbs feel you have to understand the relationship 03:54.079 --> 03:56.659 between both--and I'm going to do this again, 03:56.657 --> 03:58.967 in more detail; I better get to what I'm doing 03:58.965 --> 04:02.305 today. But that it's not just young 04:02.306 --> 04:07.136 people with not much of a future, it also is, 04:07.141 --> 04:11.651 mostly has to do with under-privileged and 04:11.646 --> 04:17.906 under-appreciated minorities pitted against the CRS, 04:17.910 --> 04:21.060 the national kind of military police, as well as the municipal 04:21.055 --> 04:22.975 police. And of course what the 04:22.978 --> 04:26.358 government of Chirac did was take away all the money 04:26.360 --> 04:30.010 virtually for voluntary associations that are bridges to 04:30.008 --> 04:33.848 helping integrate people into the communities in which they 04:33.854 --> 04:37.174 live and into the State in which they live. 04:40.815 --> 04:42.765 it's just--oh, well, there we go. 04:42.770 --> 04:45.300 How did we get on that? 04:45.300 --> 04:46.900 We got on that because it's important to talk about. 04:46.900 --> 04:49.980 Allez. So, today I'm going to talk 04:49.982 --> 04:51.422 about Charles de Gaulle. 04:56.335 --> 05:01.365 les temps, I was a student in Paris, 05:01.370 --> 05:04.290 just a little older than you, and living in an 05:04.290 --> 05:08.050 eleven-franc-a-night hotel, on rue Monsieur le Prince--that 05:08.053 --> 05:10.263 was about two dollars a night. 05:10.259 --> 05:13.289 My hotel room wasn't worth that, actually, 05:13.294 --> 05:16.704 but it was kind of an interesting place to live 05:16.699 --> 05:19.479 for--again, I was living in Limoges for a 05:19.480 --> 05:20.690 lot of the year too. 05:20.689 --> 05:24.439 I went to the Archives one day about--get there early, 05:24.438 --> 05:27.758 which I always do, and this little man who was a 05:27.762 --> 05:32.432 World War Two veteran who had lost most of his arm in the war, 05:32.430 --> 05:35.300 who would check my ID, but he knew me so there was no 05:35.300 --> 05:38.060 problem--my wife used to come in looking for me, 05:38.060 --> 05:40.630 when she was my wife, carrying our baby and the 05:45.050 --> 05:46.100 it's not that way any more. 05:46.100 --> 05:48.820 And he said, "we're going to close because 05:48.817 --> 05:52.527 the general, il est mort"--the general is dead. 05:52.529 --> 05:55.349 And Charles de Gaulle died, had died. 05:55.350 --> 05:57.590 And I, I think, infuriated my Gaullist friend 05:57.585 --> 06:00.375 by saying that he died of boredom watching French TV; 06:00.379 --> 06:03.699 but he was off in Colombey-les-Deux-Eglises, 06:03.695 --> 06:07.855 and he had died at age--he must've just been eighty; 06:07.860 --> 06:10.030 wasn't he eighty when he died, do you remember? 06:10.029 --> 06:11.969 You don't remember, but anyway I think he was 06:11.970 --> 06:12.940 eighty when he died. 06:12.939 --> 06:17.759 And, so, later my Gaullist friend, who's a lawyer, 06:17.760 --> 06:21.990 a Parisian lawyer, called me up and said, 06:21.990 --> 06:25.290 "look, why don't we go down to Notre Dame and go to the Mass?" 06:25.290 --> 06:28.700 De Gaulle didn't want to have a Mass, and I didn't particularly 06:28.697 --> 06:31.937 want to go down to Notre Dame and go to the Mass for Charles 06:31.940 --> 06:35.030 de Gaulle, but he said that it'll be--it's 06:35.028 --> 06:37.868 a historical event, we should be there, 06:37.869 --> 06:39.439 you should see it. 06:39.440 --> 06:41.950 And so I went down, we went down at three in the 06:41.947 --> 06:44.877 morning and waited in line, and then they'd flown in all 06:44.882 --> 06:47.102 these people. Haile Selassie was there, 06:47.095 --> 06:49.495 that was kind of amazing to see Haile Selassie, 06:49.497 --> 06:52.837 and the odious Richard Nixon was there and all these leaders, 06:52.840 --> 06:54.250 with rather minimum security. 06:54.250 --> 06:55.930 This was not in a high security time. 06:55.930 --> 06:58.650 You could see people who were carrying machineguns up on the 06:58.650 --> 07:01.420 towers, you could see people in the cathedral up--I was about 07:01.417 --> 07:03.397 the only person anyone saw get frisked, 07:03.400 --> 07:05.690 going in. They looked at me and said we 07:05.690 --> 07:07.780 want to check you out; so they checked me out, 07:07.780 --> 07:09.230 with the long hair and all that. 07:09.230 --> 07:12.970 But we got in there, and it was a moment of--as a 07:12.966 --> 07:16.776 moment of history, and it was something to see. 07:16.779 --> 07:21.159 His influence on French life and the memory of French life 07:21.156 --> 07:23.916 can hardly--the collective memory, 07:23.920 --> 07:28.260 of collective memory in French life, can hardly be 07:28.263 --> 07:32.473 underestimated; yet it was so long ago that he 07:32.473 --> 07:37.163 died, and the party that bore his name disappeared, 07:37.160 --> 07:40.400 that even if someone like Sarkozy or, before him, 07:40.404 --> 07:42.164 Jacques Chirac, would go to 07:42.162 --> 07:45.402 Colombey-les-Deux-Eglises, this village in the 07:45.398 --> 07:48.958 Haute-Marne, in the east of France, to have their picture 07:48.959 --> 07:52.969 taken in front of his tomb with the Croix de Lorraine--de Gaulle 07:52.965 --> 07:54.995 seems like a long time ago. 07:55.000 --> 08:02.390 But what he did in 1958 is of course to rescue the French 08:02.391 --> 08:07.801 State and to define, in his own personage, 08:07.802 --> 08:14.272 a certain idea of France that he represented. 08:14.269 --> 08:18.419 And to borrow a Catholic image, de Gaulle who was born in 08:18.418 --> 08:21.118 Lille, right near, as I said the other day, 08:21.120 --> 08:24.120 right near the fortress--Lille is a pretty Catholic town--he 08:24.120 --> 08:26.460 was not himself a practicing religious man, 08:26.459 --> 08:29.819 but I suppose it's a religious image that I somehow have 08:29.815 --> 08:33.345 retained in the back of my mind from the days at a good old 08:33.354 --> 08:38.554 Jesuit high school in Portland, Oregon, that he saw himself as 08:38.547 --> 08:43.947 the mystical body of France, that somehow the whole, 08:43.950 --> 08:46.140 that is his body, his personage, 08:46.138 --> 08:49.028 his very being, was bigger than all of the 08:49.032 --> 08:52.282 parts that constituted the body of France, 08:52.279 --> 08:58.429 and that he represented France with his very existence, 08:58.425 --> 09:04.225 and that this was how he wanted to be remembered. 09:04.230 --> 09:09.980 And when he leaves power in 1969, after a rather obscure 09:09.984 --> 09:15.534 election, plebiscite really, that that image still was 09:15.529 --> 09:20.039 retained. There are really three elements 09:20.042 --> 09:26.042 that represented his image and the myth of Charles de Gaulle 09:26.041 --> 09:28.381 after World War Two. 09:28.379 --> 09:34.389 That he was the providential figure who through his own 09:34.387 --> 09:41.167 determination had saved France and its honor after the blowout 09:41.173 --> 09:46.233 of May/June 1940; that as his voice crackled over 09:46.234 --> 09:50.894 the BBC on the 18th of June, 1940, a date that's still 09:50.891 --> 09:56.081 commemorated every year when there's a Gaullist in power and 09:56.076 --> 10:01.696 a mayor of France such as Chirac there's always a little event to 10:01.700 --> 10:05.710 commemorate that; that he had restored the 10:05.714 --> 10:07.384 integrity of France. 10:07.379 --> 10:10.199 My friend Bob Paxton, as I reminded you the other 10:13.549 --> 10:16.369 State but he did not save the French nation; 10:16.370 --> 10:18.850 he destroyed it by destroying liberty, fraternity, 10:18.850 --> 10:20.470 equality, and what that means. 10:20.470 --> 10:25.960 That Charles de Gaulle had restored the integrity of 10:25.962 --> 10:31.992 France, had restored the sovereignty of French over their 10:31.994 --> 10:36.274 own political existence, which is obvious, 10:36.268 --> 10:39.818 and the republic itself, by being involved in the 10:39.820 --> 10:44.380 creation of the Fourth Republic, but then repudiating the way it 10:44.382 --> 10:47.252 was established, wanting centralized executive 10:47.245 --> 10:51.335 authority and all of that, and then would go off pouting 10:51.341 --> 10:53.671 to Colombey-les-Deux-Eglises. 10:53.669 --> 11:02.199 That he'd then he'd reunified the nation after the civil war 11:02.201 --> 11:06.161 that was Vichy. But, again, with a Gaullist 11:06.164 --> 11:08.734 twist is that everybody had basically resisted, 11:08.728 --> 11:11.338 or wanted to resist, that they were always ready 11:11.335 --> 11:14.275 with the gun nearby to go and kill the German when they could 11:14.282 --> 11:18.722 and to restore France, and that hardly anyone had 11:18.721 --> 11:21.711 collaborated. So, this was sort of the 11:21.711 --> 11:22.921 Gaullist take on this. 11:22.919 --> 11:27.249 And that he had restored the centralized state--not after 11:27.253 --> 11:30.733 World War Two, because the Fourth Republic was 11:30.734 --> 11:33.834 this sort of swinging door ministry; 11:33.830 --> 11:36.930 it's rather like the Third Republic--which as in the case 11:36.929 --> 11:40.249 of the Third Republic gave the illusion that French political 11:40.251 --> 11:42.411 life was more unstable than it was, 11:42.409 --> 11:44.399 because the deputies of the Fourth Republic, 11:44.403 --> 11:46.353 like the deputies of the Third Republic, 11:46.350 --> 11:50.110 it was a club where the same people were re-elected time and 11:50.106 --> 11:52.776 time again from the same constituencies. 11:52.779 --> 11:58.999 But de Gaulle's thing was that the only form of government that 11:58.996 --> 12:05.006 could restore the integrity of France and end the factions of 12:05.012 --> 12:08.762 parliamentary quarrels, and quarreling, 12:08.762 --> 12:12.442 and he hated the communists, of course, was a strongly 12:12.443 --> 12:14.253 centralized government. 12:14.250 --> 12:17.020 And for that he had to wait, as you now know, 12:17.017 --> 12:19.657 until cinquante-huit, until 1958, 12:25.649 --> 12:29.159 who personified Gaullism itself, 12:29.159 --> 12:33.679 and whose son is an important figure in contemporary France. 12:33.679 --> 12:38.919 This is very important for de Gaulle's view of France, 12:38.922 --> 12:42.962 is that he had freed France, in his mind, 12:42.956 --> 12:48.106 from the anarchy of political parties that were quarreling, 12:48.110 --> 12:53.620 a parliamentary government that he didn't think had worked, 12:53.620 --> 12:57.900 that was incapable of restoring the "grandeur" of France--a word 12:57.900 --> 13:01.720 to which he returned constantly; more about that in 13:01.715 --> 13:06.895 awhile--strengthening the French state under a new constitution 13:10.918 --> 13:15.438 strong executive with a president who would be in power 13:15.435 --> 13:19.775 for seven years, and who had strong executive 13:19.779 --> 13:22.759 authority. Now, those of you who know 13:22.756 --> 13:27.426 anything about France before 1871, if this doesn't sound like 13:27.434 --> 13:31.644 Napoleon, both N-I, Napoleon the First, 13:31.637 --> 13:37.717 and N-III, Napoleon the Third--it's an obvious thing to 13:37.721 --> 13:40.081 say, but it's still true--that 13:40.078 --> 13:43.588 in--there's no need you should know this, but some of you 13:43.591 --> 13:45.851 do--1799 on the 18th of Brumaire, 13:45.850 --> 13:49.850 Napoleon, with the help of the wily Abbe Sieyes, 13:49.853 --> 13:53.863 the priest, Sieyes, who wrote "What is the Third 13:53.857 --> 13:57.437 Estate," overthrow the Assembly. 13:57.440 --> 13:59.960 Napoleon had a bit of a faltering and his brother Lucien 13:59.964 --> 14:02.814 helped him out there, because he lost--the only time 14:02.810 --> 14:06.210 in his life he really lost his courage--they overthrow the 14:06.213 --> 14:09.203 government and impose a consulate in which Napoleon 14:09.198 --> 14:12.898 becomes the first council and finally snatches the crown, 14:12.899 --> 14:15.649 it is thought, from the Pope and crowns 14:15.654 --> 14:19.824 himself emperor. And Napoleon adopts what would 14:19.823 --> 14:23.933 become the most Gaullist political strategy, 14:23.928 --> 14:28.508 shared by that of governments of North Korea, 14:28.509 --> 14:32.829 among other dictatorships, that is the plebiscite, 14:32.830 --> 14:36.710 where you ask people with a cagy question, 14:36.710 --> 14:39.620 "Do you agree"-- for example, Napoleon III, 14:39.622 --> 14:43.442 just before the fall of the whole mess at the end of the 14:43.436 --> 14:45.716 1860s, in 1870 there was a plebiscite, 14:45.723 --> 14:48.913 "Do you agree with the reforms that have been undertaken by our 14:48.910 --> 14:49.990 glorious Emperor?" 14:49.990 --> 14:51.470 et cetera, et cetera. 14:51.470 --> 14:53.250 If you write "no," you're saying, "well, 14:53.246 --> 14:55.796 I don't really like reforms," and so therefore do you say 14:55.798 --> 14:58.298 "yes" because you like reforms or "yes" because you like 14:58.304 --> 15:00.324 Napoleon III? And, so, naturally the 15:00.321 --> 15:02.891 plebiscite is like a North Korean plebiscite where 15:02.886 --> 15:05.766 ninety-nine percent of the people say oui--that's 15:05.765 --> 15:09.215 what Napoleon III did after he overthrew the Second Republic. 15:09.220 --> 15:14.090 So, there are strong continuities between Napoleon 15:14.085 --> 15:19.735 and the idea of a centralized state overcoming the sort of 15:19.744 --> 15:23.124 quarreling factions of France. 15:23.120 --> 15:25.760 And Napoleon I put an end to what was called, 15:25.764 --> 15:28.534 rather colorfully and an unfortunate phrase, 15:28.529 --> 15:32.179 but "the war of the chamber pots" that was the French 15:32.175 --> 15:35.745 Directory, before this whole thing is overthrown. 15:35.750 --> 15:38.310 And, so, there's an appeal to the nation. 15:38.309 --> 15:42.589 And Napoleon was one of the originators of an aggressive 15:42.588 --> 15:44.298 kind of nationalism. 15:44.299 --> 15:47.319 But Napoleon was perceived as somebody on the Left. 15:47.320 --> 15:49.950 Napoleon III, before he was Napoleon III, 15:49.954 --> 15:53.254 in 1841, wrote a little pamphlet called "Property," 15:53.246 --> 15:55.876 about property, called "The Extinction of 15:55.880 --> 15:59.140 Pauperism"; and the idea that somehow the 15:59.141 --> 16:03.351 caring State cares about all people in France and that all 16:03.350 --> 16:07.780 people in France find part of their identity in the notion of 16:07.780 --> 16:10.650 being French. And as you already know from 16:10.649 --> 16:13.619 things we've talked about, that part of nationalism was 16:13.617 --> 16:16.857 this sort of aggressive carrying of the French language into 16:16.861 --> 16:19.061 corners in which it was not spoken, 16:19.059 --> 16:24.239 or spoken only as a second way of speaking, language, 16:24.240 --> 16:27.130 dialect, patois, et cetera, 16:27.130 --> 16:32.570 et cetera. So, the idea of a national will 16:32.569 --> 16:41.059 represented in the body of a strong executive authority is a 16:41.056 --> 16:50.256 Napoleonic idea that became part of the political existence of de 16:50.263 --> 16:55.743 Gaulle, and ultimately of Gaullism. 16:55.740 --> 16:59.540 But you had to have the idea of it being ratified by the 16:59.536 --> 17:01.396 people--thus plebiscites. 17:08.769 --> 17:12.769 in quotes, with the Marshall--again the military 17:16.000 --> 17:18.940 as he saw it, and de Gaulle--it was never 17:18.936 --> 17:23.556 ratified by any kind of popular vote because it was an even more 17:23.560 --> 17:26.570 authoritarian government under Vichy. 17:26.569 --> 17:29.669 The 1920s and the '30s, and the first half of the 17:29.665 --> 17:33.015 1940s, was the wave of authoritarianism that cost the 17:33.019 --> 17:35.599 lives of so many millions of people, 17:35.600 --> 17:38.360 I need not remind you. 17:38.359 --> 17:41.649 And that Bonapartism, as in Gaullism, 17:41.648 --> 17:46.858 involved the kind of stamp of popular approval seen in the 17:46.855 --> 17:51.875 plebiscites of 1958, and in subsequent plebiscites. 17:51.880 --> 17:57.860 And he goes out in 1969, after he loses--they lose the 17:57.862 --> 18:00.772 plebiscite. On January 18th--no, 18:00.774 --> 18:04.964 I must've written this wrong, it must be the dix-huit de 18:04.963 --> 18:07.593 juin, it must be June 18th, 18:07.590 --> 18:12.200 1940--he says "I"--he often said "we," the royal "we," 18:12.200 --> 18:15.140 but in this case he said "I," because he wasn't yet running 18:15.144 --> 18:16.874 the show--"I, General de Gaulle, 18:16.869 --> 18:20.759 French soldier and leader, am conscious that I am speaking 18:20.758 --> 18:24.168 in the name of France"--that I represent France; 18:24.170 --> 18:26.790 again the mystical body. 18:30.452 --> 18:33.972 constitution of '58, said that the only chance for 18:33.971 --> 18:38.171 French democracy, if that term may be used, 18:38.169 --> 18:43.329 is to have a republican monarch, and that was the 18:43.332 --> 18:46.562 Gaullist view of de Gaulle. 18:46.559 --> 18:53.749 And he resigns on the 20th of June, 1946, and the Fourth 18:53.748 --> 18:59.498 Republic comes into existence without him. 18:59.500 --> 19:04.250 Now, when he returns to power, in '58, it was after--because 19:04.248 --> 19:08.188 of the chaos of what was happening in Algeria that 19:08.191 --> 19:13.021 republican institutions seemed to have been discredited. 19:13.019 --> 19:19.759 And, so, he has the upper hand there to identify himself with 19:19.763 --> 19:24.263 the strongly centralized French state. 19:24.259 --> 19:28.439 It was clear in 1958, as it had been clear with 19:28.437 --> 19:33.247 Napoleon--but this is a different case--Napoleon I, 19:33.250 --> 19:39.650 that it was only de Gaulle at that moment who could impose 19:39.648 --> 19:45.738 discipline on the French Army; thus the howls of betrayal when 19:45.740 --> 19:50.090 the other generals say he's going to let Algeria become 19:50.094 --> 19:54.424 free. And thus the sense of betrayal, 19:54.421 --> 19:57.511 and they try to kill him. 19:57.509 --> 20:01.779 And, so, but for all of his verbal-- his respect for and 20:01.784 --> 20:04.664 endorsement of popular sovereignty, 20:04.660 --> 20:09.840 but his tool of State is really often the plebiscite, 20:09.836 --> 20:15.606 which you can argue is sort of a sham tool of democracy. 20:15.609 --> 20:21.139 What he does--and reflecting the fact that the 1880s and the 20:21.137 --> 20:25.907 1890s are the period of mass politics when the first 20:25.914 --> 20:29.104 political parties are created. 20:29.099 --> 20:32.879 Napoleon I and Napoleon III did not create political parties. 20:32.880 --> 20:34.860 Political parties did not exist in France; 20:34.859 --> 20:37.269 they existed, the Whigs and the Tories 20:37.273 --> 20:40.473 existed in England already, but that is a long, 20:40.470 --> 20:45.220 complicated story that starts with the run up to the English 20:45.221 --> 20:49.491 Civil War at the middle of the seventeenth century. 20:49.490 --> 20:53.390 But he creates a political party that will support him, 20:53.392 --> 20:55.562 and his support, the people, 20:55.559 --> 20:59.199 a lot of the people who were Gaullists in the late 1940s were 20:59.198 --> 21:02.168 part of what is called the MRP, or whatever, 21:02.174 --> 21:06.724 the big mass Catholic political party which was extremely 21:06.720 --> 21:14.010 conservative. But he--the essence of this was 21:14.013 --> 21:20.203 strongly centralized authority. 21:20.200 --> 21:25.430 Did he consciously pattern himself after the Napoleons, 21:25.433 --> 21:29.023 or after Boulanger for that matter? 21:29.019 --> 21:33.669 He'd been born in 1890, in Lille, but brought up in--I 21:33.667 --> 21:37.307 think he was born in Lille, I'm sure I've seen this house 21:37.313 --> 21:39.673 in which I thought he was born, in Lille, but he was brought up 21:39.673 --> 21:43.413 in Paris. He loved the Arc de Triomphe 21:43.412 --> 21:49.162 and he loved Invalides, which is where Napoleon is 21:49.157 --> 21:52.177 buried. I've got to just give you one 21:52.184 --> 21:55.194 small story, which I don't think I've related. 21:55.190 --> 21:58.620 There is a famous American tennis player who the first time 21:58.624 --> 22:01.234 this tennis player was in the French Open, 22:01.230 --> 22:04.180 which is sponsored the Banque Nationale de Paris, 22:04.183 --> 22:07.263 they took this tennis player on a tour of Paris, 22:07.259 --> 22:10.239 and that tour got kind of old for this particular player; 22:10.240 --> 22:13.830 after about an hour and a half this person had seen enough. 22:13.829 --> 22:16.029 And then finally they said, some journalists said, 22:16.032 --> 22:18.462 "what do you like best about what you saw in Paris?" 22:18.460 --> 22:20.740 and the tennis player said, "Oh, I really liked the tomb 22:20.738 --> 22:24.078 with the little dead dude;" and the little dead dude is of 22:24.077 --> 22:27.427 course Napoleon, and that image is still… 22:27.426 --> 22:30.206 Napoleon's tomb, which you see from above, 22:30.208 --> 22:33.118 you can't see in the tomb, it's not like when you're 22:33.122 --> 22:36.782 looking at Lenin or something but--is a massive tourist draw, 22:36.779 --> 22:38.539 and that is something that's always happened, 22:38.539 --> 22:40.179 that's always been the case since then. 22:40.180 --> 22:44.620 He was a lecturer at the Military College of Saint-Cyr, 22:44.617 --> 22:49.467 near Paris, and he lectured on Napoleon's military campaigns 22:49.465 --> 22:52.255 and particularly that of 1805. 22:52.259 --> 22:58.289 When he organized the French Free Forces in North Africa in 22:58.286 --> 23:04.626 '41 he referred to Napoleon's campaigns that he'd studied very 23:04.625 --> 23:08.155 carefully. But he knew also that because 23:08.162 --> 23:12.332 the French Constitution had been written--that is the Third 23:12.328 --> 23:14.798 Republic, end of the Fourth Republic--had 23:14.798 --> 23:17.858 been written reflecting the fear of people like Napoleons, 23:17.859 --> 23:21.199 the Napoleons, of Caesarism, 23:21.202 --> 23:28.752 that he realized that that was always a possibility and always 23:28.753 --> 23:35.193 spoke highly of things like popular sovereignty. 23:35.190 --> 23:39.700 He always used a kind of appeals to the French masses 23:39.696 --> 23:44.976 that Napoleon himself had done so effectively--more about that 23:44.983 --> 23:48.993 in a minute, and his sort of plunging into 23:48.988 --> 23:52.688 the crowds, to the horror of his guards. 23:52.690 --> 23:55.690 Something happened when Gorbachev came to the United 23:55.690 --> 23:59.340 States, and Gorbachev was such an impressive person and such an 23:59.337 --> 24:01.217 under-appreciated great man. 24:01.220 --> 24:05.140 And Gorbachev just shocked his guards by getting out of the 24:05.138 --> 24:09.128 big, black limousine near the mall in Washington and sort of 24:09.125 --> 24:13.185 plunging and giving high-fives, the Russian equivalents of 24:13.189 --> 24:16.849 high-fives, to people in the crowd, where the guards were 24:16.850 --> 24:21.230 just scared to death because we had lost a Kennedy and all this, 24:21.230 --> 24:24.240 two Kennedys, indeed, and because of security 24:24.235 --> 24:26.465 issues. And de Gaulle who had survived 24:26.465 --> 24:29.475 these various assassination attempts, and one in which, 24:29.480 --> 24:33.410 as I said, just this huge man, this car which is riddled by 24:33.405 --> 24:36.785 machineguns, a couple of guys firing in Clamart, 24:36.789 --> 24:39.039 and he escapes absolutely unscathed. 24:39.039 --> 24:42.049 Napoleon was only wounded three times, very lightly. 24:42.049 --> 24:46.509 Napoleon seemed to have this view that comes out of saintly 24:46.508 --> 24:50.808 romantic battling figures in the medieval times that they 24:50.814 --> 24:55.354 were--that God had made them immune to physical danger, 24:55.349 --> 24:58.099 and that if somebody fired in the seventeenth century a bullet 24:58.103 --> 25:00.453 at such a person that they could catch the bullet, 25:00.450 --> 25:03.910 as if Superman or some ridiculous video thing, 25:03.908 --> 25:06.058 catch them in their teeth. 25:06.059 --> 25:09.909 But part of this is the popular appeal of this man who was full 25:09.905 --> 25:11.885 of famous things that he said. 25:11.890 --> 25:14.860 But he never intended it as witticisms; 25:14.859 --> 25:16.749 the man had virtually no sense of humor. 25:16.750 --> 25:19.470 He's a cynic but a very smart man. 25:19.470 --> 25:21.990 But he's probably best remembered for saying, 25:21.989 --> 25:25.309 "how can you possibly run a country"--I don't think he used 25:25.309 --> 25:28.109 the word rule, that would've been a mistake, 25:28.113 --> 25:30.683 that would've been lapsing to the royal we, 25:30.681 --> 25:34.351 which he used constantly--"How can you run a country that has 25:34.349 --> 25:36.489 268 different kinds of cheese? 25:36.490 --> 25:38.770 It's all so complex." 25:38.769 --> 25:42.829 In fact, there are many more than 268 kinds of cheese; 25:42.829 --> 25:47.079 there's probably 268 different kinds of picodons, 25:47.081 --> 25:51.561 which are small goats' cheeses produced in the southeast of 25:51.563 --> 25:53.963 France and in other places. 25:53.960 --> 25:58.050 But what organized all this stuff together in his thinking 25:58.045 --> 26:01.475 is that France cannot be France without grandeur, 26:01.484 --> 26:02.994 without grandeur. 26:02.990 --> 26:09.250 So, one of the compelling aspects of his existence was 26:09.251 --> 26:14.601 that how you keep a power, that is no longer really a 26:14.602 --> 26:19.312 great power, in a world that had been divided among two great 26:19.314 --> 26:23.524 powers, how you keep a diminished great 26:23.518 --> 26:28.038 power a great power, how do you do that? 26:28.039 --> 26:32.179 So, there were two ways, very vehemently anti-communist 26:32.177 --> 26:35.447 through the whole thing, but more realistic than the 26:35.453 --> 26:38.303 Americans, always more realistic than the Americans--and this 26:38.304 --> 26:39.924 we'll tie together in a minute. 26:39.920 --> 26:44.990 Two ways: one is that you maintain this forceful 26:51.670 --> 26:54.510 The clash of these two civilizations, 26:54.510 --> 26:58.690 both with their monumental exaggerations and both with 26:58.692 --> 27:02.942 their monumental problems; the Americans' problems less 27:02.935 --> 27:06.945 bloody than the traditions in the Soviet Union--how do you do 27:06.954 --> 27:09.124 that? So, you become independent, 27:09.117 --> 27:11.827 you leave NATO, you throw the Americans out; 27:11.829 --> 27:14.849 thus these huge airbases that were once full of American 27:14.852 --> 27:17.932 planes, full of American Air Force people and soldiers in 27:17.928 --> 27:20.618 Chateauroux and all these places--I mentioned this 27:20.621 --> 27:23.481 before--now empty, just big parking lots 27:23.484 --> 27:25.524 essentially. You can still see them all over 27:25.517 --> 27:27.267 the place. Or Lyon, there's another good 27:27.273 --> 27:29.293 one. You're independent, 27:29.294 --> 27:34.084 and you insist on having the force de frappe, 27:34.084 --> 27:37.424 force, like force, and then de, 27:37.418 --> 27:40.788 d-e, and then frappe, f-r-a-p-p-e; 27:40.789 --> 27:43.889 and frappe, it sounds like something that's 27:43.893 --> 27:47.383 served at Coffee Too or Starbucks, but it is the nuclear 27:47.376 --> 27:50.136 capacity. And, so, France is going to be 27:50.138 --> 27:53.368 independent, it's going to have nuclear capacity. 27:53.369 --> 27:56.169 The Americans had the atomic bomb, the Soviet Union had the 27:56.165 --> 27:58.125 atomic bomb. The Americans had used an 27:58.129 --> 28:01.559 atomic bomb. The Israelis probably did not 28:01.557 --> 28:06.787 yet have the atomic bomb but soon would, and India would 28:06.788 --> 28:11.728 later and the Pakistanis and as you know the Chinese, 28:11.733 --> 28:15.783 as well. So, that leads to point number 28:15.779 --> 28:20.929 two, that is by being independent and by being French, 28:20.930 --> 28:25.500 that you maintain your influence in places even as they 28:25.503 --> 28:29.063 are being decolonized--places like Mali, 28:29.059 --> 28:31.639 for example, or Senegal, or ex-Zaire, 28:31.638 --> 28:35.718 the Congo, which was the awful Leopold's private territory 28:35.722 --> 28:39.952 before the Belgian parliament took it over at the end of the 28:39.949 --> 28:43.779 nineteenth century, the beginning of the twentieth 28:43.782 --> 28:47.532 century, because of just the massacres, the slaughter of 28:47.527 --> 28:50.997 local people by sort of Belgian mercenary types, 28:51.000 --> 28:53.470 and all of this; that these places, 28:53.470 --> 28:57.350 that even after Algeria, and before that Morocco and 28:57.352 --> 28:59.892 Tunisia, become independent that the 28:59.887 --> 29:03.657 influence of la belle France in places like Vietnam, 29:03.660 --> 29:06.880 after the French leave, because of French civilization, 29:06.879 --> 29:10.159 the civilizing mission, the French language-- Lebanon, 29:10.159 --> 29:13.499 another very good example, French influence in Lebanon, 29:13.500 --> 29:15.380 terribly, terribly important. 29:15.380 --> 29:20.590 And that this kind of influence, a cultural influence 29:20.590 --> 29:26.400 and a political influence of being an honest broker between 29:26.401 --> 29:32.211 these two big colossal powers will help accentuate France's 29:32.213 --> 29:37.293 existence as a great power, continued to exist as a great 29:37.292 --> 29:39.152 power. But there was a contradiction 29:39.154 --> 29:41.534 there because France was no longer a great power, 29:41.528 --> 29:43.208 but wanted to be a great power. 29:43.210 --> 29:49.800 And, so, that was essential in the way that de Gaulle viewed 29:49.801 --> 29:54.271 France's role and personally his role; 29:54.269 --> 29:58.309 that France would maintain its influence in what they called in 29:58.310 --> 30:02.370 those days the Third World, tiers monde, 30:02.372 --> 30:08.772 that were--had just been freed from the colonial imperial 30:08.773 --> 30:14.493 experience but were economically disadvantaged. 30:14.490 --> 30:18.050 And that France's historical mission of carrying 30:18.046 --> 30:20.766 civilization, French civilization, 30:20.769 --> 30:24.059 the civilizing mission, et cetera, et cetera, 30:24.055 --> 30:26.515 would continue in that context. 30:26.519 --> 30:31.329 Now, you even saw this very recently in the case of the 30:31.325 --> 30:36.305 Bulgarian nurses who had been in Libya accused of--it's a 30:36.309 --> 30:41.559 terribly complicated case--of infecting Libyan children with 30:41.560 --> 30:42.450 HIV, 30:42.450 --> 30:46.060 30:46.059 --> 30:49.009 and who had been condemned to death and had been in prison for 30:49.007 --> 30:50.357 I don't remember how long. 30:50.359 --> 30:53.229 And one of the first things that Sarkozy does is he sends 30:53.232 --> 30:55.132 his wife, who's no longer his wife, 30:55.130 --> 31:01.290 to Libya to use the influence, that old French influence, 31:01.289 --> 31:07.669 in the Middle East to obtain the release of these Bulgarian 31:07.670 --> 31:10.420 nurses. And indeed they were able to 31:10.416 --> 31:12.336 pull that off. I think one of the nurses was 31:12.338 --> 31:14.348 Palestinian but I think the other ones were Bulgarian, 31:14.347 --> 31:16.737 I'm sure they were Bulgarian; I'm not sure about the 31:16.743 --> 31:18.253 Palestinian but I think so. 31:18.250 --> 31:21.370 And it works. But this is an idea that we can 31:21.367 --> 31:24.887 be there, we can intervene in these cases and get things 31:24.894 --> 31:26.694 happened because of that. 31:26.690 --> 31:29.720 And no one--if you travel in Africa and in Francophone 31:29.715 --> 31:33.195 countries, nobody should have any illusion about the continued 31:33.196 --> 31:35.476 influence of France in these places; 31:35.480 --> 31:37.040 and it is very, very important, 31:37.044 --> 31:40.074 and this is something that de Gaulle believed very much. 31:40.069 --> 31:45.659 He feared the domination of Europe and France by Britain and 31:45.660 --> 31:49.640 the United States, using NATO as a tool. 31:49.640 --> 31:54.730 And, so, you can argue now that Europe, quote/unquote Europe, 31:54.728 --> 31:58.468 the European Union, the European community and all 31:58.470 --> 32:02.130 this stuff, that the basis of this lies certainly in what 32:02.129 --> 32:05.069 would've seemed in the 1920s and the '30s, 32:05.069 --> 32:09.509 or for that matter the 1880s and '90s, a horribly unusual 32:09.508 --> 32:12.518 alliance between Germany and France. 32:12.519 --> 32:15.209 And de Gaulle moves in that direction. 32:15.210 --> 32:21.210 And, so, that is a way of--working against is the wrong 32:21.211 --> 32:27.881 term--but sort of circumventing the kind of domination of the 32:27.880 --> 32:33.590 U.S. and of Britain in all of this. 32:33.589 --> 32:39.409 And what he helps do--and this is very important--is it ends 32:39.407 --> 32:44.137 all that animosity between Germany and France. 32:44.140 --> 32:46.560 I can remember going up to the Normandy beaches, 32:46.556 --> 32:48.456 the Norman beaches, and try waiting in 32:48.459 --> 32:51.539 there--imagine all these people shooting at you on the 6th of 32:51.544 --> 32:53.134 June, 1944 when you go to Omaha 32:53.132 --> 32:54.932 Beach, or Utah Beach, or one of these places, 32:54.932 --> 32:56.652 and it's full of Americans going there; 32:56.650 --> 33:00.660 it's full of very old Americans going there, to see where they 33:00.659 --> 33:02.499 had lost a lot of friends. 33:02.500 --> 33:07.930 But I remember going there with German plates--this is in the 33:07.926 --> 33:12.626 early 1970s--and still getting stares and insults, 33:12.630 --> 33:14.870 that I could understand perfectly well; 33:14.869 --> 33:17.449 they thought we were German, and we weren't, 33:17.450 --> 33:20.630 we were your age and just kind of traveling around, 33:20.630 --> 33:23.080 and sleeping on beaches, and eating a little, 33:23.084 --> 33:25.264 and drinking some wine along the way, 33:25.260 --> 33:27.050 and all that stuff. 33:27.049 --> 33:30.859 But de Gaulle helped put an end to that, and now if you ask 33:30.858 --> 33:33.748 almost anybody, if you ask one of the Germans 33:33.747 --> 33:37.027 going into Strasbourg to buy foie gras, 33:37.029 --> 33:41.729 or all the French going over to Germany to buy what is slightly 33:41.729 --> 33:44.539 cheaper gasoline, this is an alliance, 33:44.544 --> 33:48.604 and a cornerstone of Europe, particularly given the attitude 33:48.598 --> 33:52.448 of the British and all the anxieties that they have about 33:52.446 --> 33:55.566 losing their integrity, national integrity, 33:55.574 --> 33:58.114 of losing the pound and all that stuff. 33:58.109 --> 34:04.499 And, so, de Gaulle helped make that possible. 34:04.500 --> 34:09.600 He never forgot the humiliation of France having been excluded 34:09.603 --> 34:13.873 from the Allied conferences at Yalta and Potsdam. 34:13.869 --> 34:20.159 You've all seen those pictures of Stalin with Churchill and 34:20.157 --> 34:23.407 sometimes Roosevelt as well. 34:23.410 --> 34:25.710 But France was not invited. 34:25.710 --> 34:29.480 Both Roosevelt and Churchill just hated de Gaulle's guts, 34:29.481 --> 34:31.301 they hated his arrogance. 34:31.300 --> 34:35.430 And he was not a person who lacked confidence, 34:35.427 --> 34:40.837 and he was not rigolo, he was not a good-time guy. 34:40.840 --> 34:43.660 His own family, by the way, his own family 34:43.661 --> 34:46.691 vous-vous-ed him, his children did. 34:46.690 --> 34:49.380 They didn't use tu they used vous--that's 34:49.381 --> 34:51.911 amazing. And they hated him, 34:51.908 --> 34:54.788 they had contempt for him. 34:54.789 --> 34:57.329 And de Gaulle never forgot those personal humiliations and 34:57.331 --> 34:59.161 the humiliations that la France, 34:59.159 --> 35:03.039 great power, was not invited to participate 35:03.036 --> 35:06.356 in essentially the fate of Europe. 35:06.360 --> 35:11.160 And, so, that leads to 1966, France withdrawing from NATO by 35:11.164 --> 35:15.404 forcing it to transfer its headquarters from Paris to 35:15.399 --> 35:17.319 Bruxelles, to Brussels, 35:17.318 --> 35:21.078 and these army and air force bases in France were closed; 35:21.079 --> 35:24.039 and armed forces radio was moved away, so it became more 35:24.043 --> 35:27.173 difficult to listen to football games on armed forces radio 35:27.167 --> 35:29.697 because you had to get them from Frankfurt, 35:29.699 --> 35:32.089 which is an extraordinarily minor point. 35:32.090 --> 35:37.270 And again he insisted on the development of an arsenal that 35:37.269 --> 35:40.239 was nuclear. And he angered the U.S. 35:40.239 --> 35:42.209 government by refusing to support the U.S. 35:42.210 --> 35:43.950 policies in Vietnam. 35:43.949 --> 35:47.989 And of course the French had already seen how stupid policies 35:47.989 --> 35:49.469 lead to bad results. 35:49.469 --> 35:53.449 But the Americans did not see that, for a very long time, 35:53.445 --> 35:57.845 until 70,000 American soldiers and God-knows how many people in 35:57.847 --> 36:00.117 Vietnam died in all of this. 36:00.119 --> 36:01.759 He outraged--and I remember this; 36:01.760 --> 36:05.490 I wasn't in Quebec--but he went to Quebec on a state visit, 36:05.493 --> 36:08.973 and he suddenly blurts out, "long live free Quebec!" 36:08.969 --> 36:12.029 And, so, this caused all sorts of problems. 36:12.030 --> 36:16.220 This was in the late-- it was about 1967, if I remember 36:16.219 --> 36:18.939 correctly. Why free Quebec? 36:18.940 --> 36:22.790 Because Quebec is nouvelle France, and that's where you 36:22.794 --> 36:26.084 had 60,000 French men, women, and children living. 36:26.079 --> 36:30.179 At the time there were 2.5 million English people living in 36:30.178 --> 36:34.558 what was the colonies in the U.S., and a very one-sided war. 36:34.559 --> 36:36.629 But again the idea that if Quebec is free, 36:36.627 --> 36:39.547 if it's independent--my own personal view is it ought to be 36:41.380 --> 36:41.890 voir avec. 36:41.889 --> 36:45.239 But it's just my feeling, but I don't know enough about 36:45.237 --> 36:48.427 it to say that's a good idea, but I have the same kind of 36:48.430 --> 36:50.360 cultural feelings that he does about it. 36:50.360 --> 36:52.900 But this is not what you do, you do not go on a state visit 36:52.898 --> 36:54.778 and suddenly announce "long live Quebec!" 36:54.780 --> 36:58.740 Americans, this is the same thing, if somebody came from, 36:58.742 --> 37:01.862 I don't know, a Serb ambassador or an Italian 37:01.855 --> 37:05.035 prime minister suddenly arrives and says, 37:05.039 --> 37:07.329 "long live free New Mexico and Texas!" 37:07.329 --> 37:10.449 or something like that--people didn't view it very well. 37:10.449 --> 37:15.539 But although he was vehemently anti-communist, 37:15.538 --> 37:22.438 he did not want--he saw himself as again this honest broker in 37:22.436 --> 37:26.616 negotiating between these powers. 37:26.619 --> 37:31.449 His legacy were of these imperatives that he had; 37:31.449 --> 37:37.159 they were backed by deeds or at least attempts to restore the 37:37.161 --> 37:40.191 grandeur of France, its efficient, 37:40.194 --> 37:44.264 kind of active independence, as I guess Stanley Hoffmann 37:44.260 --> 37:45.960 called it that once. 37:45.960 --> 37:50.900 And this diverged from other parts of the French Right--Le 37:50.899 --> 37:53.309 Figaro magazine, for example, 37:53.311 --> 37:56.221 which is always just almost comically pro-American on every 37:56.218 --> 37:58.858 issue. The French Right couldn't--what 37:58.858 --> 38:02.738 de Gaulle did is he took the nationalism of Napoleons, 38:02.739 --> 38:05.179 the Napoleons, which was a nationalism 38:05.175 --> 38:08.985 associated with the general liberal Left--the State will do 38:08.993 --> 38:12.813 good things for people--he transforms that in the evolution 38:12.811 --> 38:15.511 that you see in the Third Republic, 38:15.510 --> 38:18.720 the nationalism, moving to the nationalism of 38:18.721 --> 38:23.251 the Right, into the equivalent of the Sacred Union of World War 38:23.246 --> 38:25.926 One, into a nationalism, 38:25.933 --> 38:31.693 fundamentally a nationalism of the Right in France. 38:31.690 --> 38:34.670 And part of that, to make a long story short, 38:34.665 --> 38:37.505 as you already have seen, is based upon his 38:37.505 --> 38:40.445 anti-communism. But at the same time you have 38:40.446 --> 38:43.466 all this business about grandeur and glory, et cetera, 38:43.472 --> 38:45.702 et cetera--grandeur more than glory; 38:45.699 --> 38:49.899 but inattention to--even at the end of what's called the 38:49.898 --> 38:53.648 glorious thirty years, the French economy takes off, 38:53.645 --> 38:56.615 that you've read about--inattention to how you 38:56.618 --> 38:59.358 modernize France, how you make it more 38:59.357 --> 39:03.107 economically competitive, and what do you do about the 39:03.112 --> 39:06.722 education system, the university system in 39:06.723 --> 39:10.143 particular? And that would come crashing 39:10.142 --> 39:12.302 down on his head in 1968. 39:12.300 --> 39:17.050 So, his deeds, his legacy in--I've already 39:17.054 --> 39:23.094 said I think what there is to say about the practical 39:23.085 --> 39:26.675 consequences of his legacy. 39:26.679 --> 39:30.379 But he did, France's influence did remain, has remained in the 39:30.380 --> 39:33.050 world, which I think is a very good thing. 39:33.050 --> 39:35.700 But the most, the greatest legacy that he 39:35.699 --> 39:39.009 left is probably his style, that of the monarchical 39:39.012 --> 39:42.352 president, the monarchial president, 39:42.345 --> 39:47.445 the king of the republic, the idea that he represented 39:47.446 --> 39:53.216 France in a way that the Sun King had represented France, 39:53.219 --> 39:57.519 towering over France, and that overriding the 39:57.515 --> 40:02.295 interests of those he considered to be talkers, 40:02.300 --> 40:06.130 mere posers or talkers, including technocrats, 40:06.129 --> 40:11.149 the kinds of people who had emerged in part out of World War 40:11.150 --> 40:14.470 Two and out of the Fourth Republic. 40:14.469 --> 40:18.569 And, so, he left unsolved the question of how you educate 40:18.573 --> 40:22.383 France for a new society, how you train and modernize 40:22.383 --> 40:24.603 people. What do you do with the 40:24.602 --> 40:28.352 poisonous relations between a very powerful patronat, 40:28.349 --> 40:32.319 that is employers, and a working class that in the 40:32.324 --> 40:36.384 1960s was still extremely influenced by the CGT, 40:39.153 --> 40:41.073 Travail, and by the Communist Party? 40:41.070 --> 40:44.630 So, there were contradictions in all of this, 40:44.632 --> 40:49.652 the idea that France is a great power when France still--France 40:49.652 --> 40:52.002 wasn't yet a great power. 40:52.000 --> 40:55.440 The idea that France can be independent and therefore 40:55.441 --> 40:58.751 maintain itself as a great power by intervening, 40:58.750 --> 41:01.730 in terms of its cultural influence, its political 41:01.733 --> 41:05.093 influence in the Third World and that sort of thing. 41:05.090 --> 41:06.620 And the reality, when push came to shove, 41:06.620 --> 41:07.960 that there were two great powers. 41:07.960 --> 41:12.850 So, it kind of, the contradictions are there. 41:12.849 --> 41:18.199 He said over and over again that he was not of the Left nor 41:18.197 --> 41:21.637 of the Right; he was above the Left or the 41:21.643 --> 41:26.363 Right--he used the "above" word, the word "above" all the time. 41:26.360 --> 41:29.980 He said "je suis un homme de la guerre de 41:29.975 --> 41:35.015 quatorze/dix-huit"--I'm a man of the War of 1914-1918; 41:35.019 --> 41:37.139 he was wounded on Belgian Bridge in Dinant, 41:37.144 --> 41:38.464 as I said the other day. 41:38.460 --> 41:43.990 And that was the Sacred Union, when in the interests of France 41:43.986 --> 41:49.776 these quarreling fragments would give up their quarrels with each 41:49.784 --> 41:55.584 other and would rally around big France--that France's historical 41:55.583 --> 42:01.113 mission was so especially said on the 11th of December, 42:01.110 --> 42:06.230 1969, "I don't want to repose, I don't want to even triumph, 42:06.231 --> 42:09.271 I want to bring people together." 42:09.269 --> 42:15.109 He saw his own party as being above these. 42:15.110 --> 42:18.730 He said that the parties--in 1965--he said parties are 42:18.732 --> 42:22.702 organizations constituted to show off particular tendencies 42:22.697 --> 42:26.657 and to support the interests of such and such categories of 42:26.661 --> 42:28.631 people, or interests, 42:28.629 --> 42:33.029 or desires, and all this stuff, time and time again. 42:33.030 --> 42:37.360 But he wasn't just someone who was going to pronounce 42:37.361 --> 42:42.111 foolishly, revert to the same eventually tired phrases, 42:42.110 --> 42:46.640 he was somebody who believed that he could pay particular 42:46.636 --> 42:48.976 attention to circumstances. 42:48.980 --> 42:52.000 In this he was rather like Bismarck, and saw himself in 42:51.997 --> 42:54.397 that way, I think it's possible to argue. 42:54.400 --> 42:58.100 In this maybe he saw himself a little bit, though I hate to 42:58.102 --> 43:01.292 make the comparison, but maybe with Henry Kissinger 43:01.294 --> 43:03.724 a little bit too, in the old days. 43:03.719 --> 43:07.709 But one of the results of the way he viewed France is that he 43:07.707 --> 43:11.427 didn't really give a damn about the existence of ordinary 43:11.428 --> 43:14.538 people. He once said that--he said this 43:14.535 --> 43:18.435 literally--"steak frites," that is steak with 43:18.443 --> 43:21.403 French fries, "is okay, it's fine, 43:21.403 --> 43:25.393 but it does not add up to national ambition"; 43:25.390 --> 43:27.890 that's an exact quote. 43:27.889 --> 43:32.409 And the business of how do you bring together, 43:32.408 --> 43:37.628 how do you retain the importance of a people with 268 43:37.630 --> 43:42.350 kinds of cheese, was a part of all of that. 43:42.349 --> 43:50.649 And, so, his style was more original than his doctrine. 43:50.650 --> 43:53.540 Take the press conference--he used to have press conferences. 43:53.539 --> 43:55.669 American presidents often have press conferences, 43:55.672 --> 43:58.252 though the current one really doesn't because the questions 43:58.248 --> 43:59.668 get too difficult to handle. 43:59.670 --> 44:02.390 But de Gaulle wasn't one for press conferences, 44:02.392 --> 44:04.762 he hated them, he couldn't stand them. 44:04.760 --> 44:07.310 But the press conferences in the old day were orchestrated, 44:07.306 --> 44:08.356 they were appearances. 44:08.360 --> 44:11.400 They were not a rock concert appearance, but they were 44:11.398 --> 44:14.548 appearances nonetheless, in which the questions had been 44:14.552 --> 44:16.192 planted. It was rather like FEMA, 44:16.186 --> 44:18.586 whatever they called it--did an amazing thing just a couple of 44:18.592 --> 44:21.062 weeks in California, they planted--the people in the 44:21.061 --> 44:23.531 room weren't reporters they were FEMA employees, 44:23.530 --> 44:25.890 and they presented it as a press conference where one guy 44:25.893 --> 44:28.323 raised his hand and he said, "why is FEMA doing such a 44:28.321 --> 44:29.901 remarkable job this time around?" 44:29.900 --> 44:31.620 And then the guy says, "well, I think we're very doing 44:31.622 --> 44:32.762 well, thank you for saying that." 44:32.760 --> 44:34.730 It turned out that he was an employee of FEMA and there 44:34.733 --> 44:35.943 weren't real journalists there. 44:35.940 --> 44:38.560 But de Gaulle would do the same thing except he would do it with 44:38.559 --> 44:40.509 real journalists; he wouldn't do it with Helen 44:40.505 --> 44:41.985 Thomas, who was a wonderful person. 44:41.989 --> 44:44.299 I once had her as a guest at the tea in Branford; 44:44.300 --> 44:46.770 she was always able to ask the first question--I don't think 44:46.772 --> 44:48.622 this is the case anymore--because she was the 44:48.615 --> 44:51.045 senior person. But you had real journalists, 44:51.045 --> 44:53.355 but they were told what questions to ask, 44:53.356 --> 44:56.996 and then he would say--he would give the same kinds of responses 44:56.996 --> 45:00.346 that I just said--"steak-frites do not end up with national 45:00.347 --> 45:03.137 ambition." At the time of the Algerian War 45:03.140 --> 45:06.120 somebody forgot to ask a question about Ben Bella. 45:06.119 --> 45:08.739 So, he said--he suddenly looks up and says, "did I hear 45:08.742 --> 45:10.832 somebody ask a question about Ben Bella?" 45:10.829 --> 45:13.879 And then he gives the response, but he turns and reads a 45:13.876 --> 45:16.426 response that had already been written for him, 45:16.425 --> 45:17.805 and sometimes by him. 45:17.809 --> 45:21.029 And, so, it was the kind of style. 45:21.030 --> 45:25.130 So, appearances were important, the idea that somehow this 45:25.130 --> 45:29.090 mystical body was connected in a real way to all of you, 45:29.087 --> 45:30.667 by national glory. 45:30.670 --> 45:35.180 And when he would go to any town, and he liked doing that, 45:35.184 --> 45:39.554 he would go and he would say, "as I stand in the shadow of 45:39.552 --> 45:43.112 your magnificent cathedral," or "next to your smiling 45:43.105 --> 45:46.995 river"--French rivers are always described as smiling, 45:47.000 --> 45:50.040 even if they're polluted, by politicians. 45:50.039 --> 45:53.199 "I am thinking of you, and seeing you here, 45:53.195 --> 45:56.645 here to welcome me, your hearts beating just as 45:56.652 --> 46:01.012 mine for France and its grandeur and its civilization, 46:01.010 --> 46:04.500 I am reminded that"--and then he launches into his two or 46:04.496 --> 46:05.676 three minute bit. 46:05.679 --> 46:08.799 And then he is in the big limousine and out of 46:08.799 --> 46:11.849 Lussac-les-Deux-Eglises or wherever it is. 46:11.849 --> 46:16.189 And it all was like that, where style increasingly 46:16.186 --> 46:20.786 overwhelmed substance, and in a man who was extremely 46:20.788 --> 46:23.108 elderly, but by no means, 46:23.109 --> 46:25.549 by no means senile, not one bit, 46:25.550 --> 46:30.200 and who could still treat with contempt anybody who came and 46:30.195 --> 46:34.445 told him something he didn't want to hear--but could be 46:34.447 --> 46:39.247 charming as well--the stage was set for his departure, 46:39.250 --> 46:41.540 as time moved on. 46:41.539 --> 46:45.459 And that would swirl around the events of 1968, 46:48.690 --> 46:52.440 the revolution that didn't really happen in France and 46:52.437 --> 46:55.687 involved an awful lot of people of your age. 46:55.690 --> 46:57.840 And it's to that, after I hope a glorious 46:57.844 --> 48:00.004 weekend, that I will return on Monday.