WEBVTT 00:01.560 --> 00:06.090 Professor Donald Kagan: We were discussing, 00:06.086 --> 00:09.756 in the broadest sense, the emergence and the 00:09.759 --> 00:14.709 development of the polis and specifically I had been 00:14.712 --> 00:19.582 telling you about Hanson's theory about the development of 00:19.581 --> 00:23.771 the family farm and the individuals who worked the 00:23.766 --> 00:28.716 family farm as a critical element in that story. 00:28.720 --> 00:34.320 Now, that same individual who produced the economic 00:34.318 --> 00:40.698 wherewithal that would support independent individuals, 00:40.700 --> 00:43.970 who are not nobleman, and who could conduct their 00:43.969 --> 00:47.989 lives in an autonomous way and who fought ultimately--fought 00:47.987 --> 00:51.727 their way onto governmental bodies which allowed them to 00:51.733 --> 00:54.393 participate in the key decisions, 00:54.390 --> 00:57.530 political decisions, and all other decisions in the 00:57.532 --> 01:01.302 state that served the element of their character and of their 01:01.304 --> 01:04.074 place in the world. That is the one that I want to 01:04.069 --> 01:07.179 turn to today. Their role as soldiers, 01:07.178 --> 01:13.028 fighting for the common cause--and that common cause now 01:13.033 --> 01:17.853 being not an individual goal, not a family goal, 01:17.847 --> 01:21.127 but the goal of the entire civic community, 01:21.132 --> 01:26.062 which was coming into being and I suppose would have had to come 01:26.058 --> 01:30.338 into being, in order to have this role, 01:30.343 --> 01:34.053 fighting for one's polis. 01:34.050 --> 01:40.120 The style of warfare that emerges in this period, 01:40.116 --> 01:46.656 apparently for the first time, is what we call the hoplite 01:46.658 --> 01:52.168 phalanx and each half of that needs to be explained. 01:52.170 --> 01:56.520 Hoplite comes from the Greek word hoplites and 01:56.515 --> 02:01.695 hoplites is built around the word hoplon which is 02:01.697 --> 02:06.207 the name of a kind of shield that the infantrymen, 02:06.209 --> 02:13.629 and we are talking about an infantry formation here, 02:13.625 --> 02:16.385 carried. You want to get out of your 02:16.387 --> 02:19.147 head the notion of a shield that's a little thing that you 02:19.147 --> 02:21.807 can move around with one hand, like that, real easy; 02:21.810 --> 02:27.100 that's not what it was. It was a great round shield 02:27.104 --> 02:35.734 about three feet across and it had--let me step out here so 02:35.729 --> 02:41.829 that I can show you. Can you hear me back there? 02:41.830 --> 02:46.270 Is that all right? Imagine a round shield of the 02:46.274 --> 02:49.624 size I've talked about and one of the things that's important 02:49.615 --> 02:51.615 is that at the end of the shield, 02:51.620 --> 02:56.270 the right end from my perspective has a grip on it, 02:56.268 --> 02:59.428 but in the middle of the shield, 02:59.430 --> 03:03.830 there is also a kind of a loose piece of leather thong that you 03:03.832 --> 03:07.942 can put your arm through, so that the shield is resting 03:07.935 --> 03:12.755 in part on that grip and on the grip that you hold at this end. 03:12.759 --> 03:17.269 You need to do that to be able to control the shield that's as 03:17.271 --> 03:19.861 big as that and as heavy as that, 03:19.860 --> 03:23.160 because it is made fundamentally of a heavy wood, 03:23.159 --> 03:27.269 typically covered by leather, sometimes with some bronze, 03:27.267 --> 03:30.707 a bronze sheet across the front of it as well. 03:30.710 --> 03:36.220 That is a very heavy thing and it will weigh you down after a 03:36.215 --> 03:38.635 while. It's going to be really hard 03:38.637 --> 03:42.127 for you to maintain that grip on that thing all through the 03:42.132 --> 03:46.162 course of a whole battle, but that shield is the key, 03:46.157 --> 03:51.437 this hoplon which gives the name to the word hoplite, 03:51.440 --> 03:53.930 or hoplites, which is hoplite. 03:53.930 --> 03:59.240 Phalanx means that these men, each man carrying his 03:59.238 --> 04:03.068 hoplon, are lined up first of all in a 04:03.066 --> 04:06.446 line, but that line is reproduced 04:06.449 --> 04:11.359 going back, so that you end with about--typically, 04:11.360 --> 04:15.290 a phalanx would have been eight men deep, 04:15.291 --> 04:19.141 eight rows deep, and that block of soldiers, 04:19.139 --> 04:24.209 however long it is, or is made up--is called the 04:24.210 --> 04:29.820 phalanx, which means something like roller. 04:29.819 --> 04:32.239 It's because the phalanx would have looked, 04:32.237 --> 04:34.947 if you were up on a hill somewhere watching it go by, 04:34.949 --> 04:39.779 as though something was rolling across the plain as the men went 04:39.782 --> 04:42.852 forward and looking pretty formidable, 04:42.850 --> 04:47.000 so that anything in its way would be mowed down in the 04:46.996 --> 04:50.966 normal course of events. So that is what we mean by the 04:50.974 --> 04:55.474 hoplite phalanx. It's a core of heavily armed 04:55.474 --> 05:01.294 infantrymen in a solid block. Okay, when did this come 05:01.293 --> 05:04.913 into effect? I'm going to start out today's 05:04.907 --> 05:09.417 talk by giving you what has been the standard and orthodox 05:09.424 --> 05:14.104 interpretation of how the hoplite phalanx worked, 05:14.100 --> 05:17.590 which, I think, again Hanson has given us the 05:17.592 --> 05:20.372 clearest and most useful account. 05:20.370 --> 05:23.180 But as you know already, from what you've read, 05:23.182 --> 05:26.612 this has come into great dispute in recent years and I'll 05:26.607 --> 05:30.277 just say a little bit about the dispute before we get through 05:30.276 --> 05:32.576 today. But what I'm giving you is the 05:32.580 --> 05:34.780 old fashioned traditional interpretation. 05:34.779 --> 05:38.859 By that view, the phalanx would have 05:38.863 --> 05:44.603 come into being somewhere between about 700 and 650 B.C., 05:44.600 --> 05:48.110 which is to say after the earliest poleis are in 05:48.112 --> 05:51.302 business, and according to this interpretation, 05:51.300 --> 05:54.180 you really have them growing up together. 05:54.180 --> 05:58.460 Nobody could be exactly sure about how this process worked. 05:58.459 --> 06:03.079 One of the big arguments that is part of this story is when 06:03.079 --> 06:07.619 did this development of new way of fighting come about; 06:07.620 --> 06:10.990 rather quickly, over a matter of a few years, 06:10.994 --> 06:14.604 or did it stretch out over quite a long time. 06:14.600 --> 06:18.330 The most extreme critics of the traditional point of view would 06:18.334 --> 06:20.994 say over centuries, that you don't get the 06:20.990 --> 06:23.960 full-blown hoplite phalanx that I will be 06:23.962 --> 06:27.702 describing to you, even until you get the fifth 06:27.700 --> 06:32.110 century B.C. But again, let's take it in the 06:32.113 --> 06:35.883 traditional way. So, if you imagine this is 06:35.878 --> 06:38.948 growing up as the polis comes into being, 06:38.946 --> 06:42.466 let me describe what a hoplite was like and then try to 06:42.472 --> 06:46.522 describe what the phalanx was like and how they operated 06:46.519 --> 06:49.909 and what are some of the consequences of their coming 06:49.914 --> 06:53.634 into being. The hoplite himself is marked 06:53.634 --> 06:57.634 by, first of all, the shield and second of all, 06:57.629 --> 07:03.489 as we continue to think about his defensive capacities, 07:03.490 --> 07:09.460 he has a certain amount of armor to protect his body. 07:09.459 --> 07:13.489 He has on top of his head a helmet made of bronze, 07:13.487 --> 07:18.417 perhaps weighing about five pounds, these are approximate; 07:18.420 --> 07:21.790 they would have differed from person to person to some degree. 07:21.790 --> 07:26.100 A very important element, he would have had a breast 07:26.100 --> 07:30.580 plate made of bronze, perhaps as much as 40 pounds. 07:30.579 --> 07:34.559 He would have snapped across his shins, greaves, 07:34.557 --> 07:39.127 sort of like the shin guards that a catcher in baseball 07:39.126 --> 07:43.146 wears, also made of bronze. The shield itself, 07:43.150 --> 07:47.900 as I've told you is made of a heavy wood, covered by a leather 07:47.895 --> 07:51.235 or bronze sheet about three feet across, 07:51.240 --> 07:56.000 something in the neighborhood of 16 to 20 pounds worth of 07:56.000 --> 07:59.570 shield and gripped as I told you before. 07:59.569 --> 08:03.739 So you want to think about his hoplite, when he has 08:03.736 --> 08:07.436 everything on and when the shield is in place, 08:07.439 --> 08:11.239 again let me sort of try to demonstrate this, 08:11.240 --> 08:16.250 he ought to be covered by some kind of defense from head to 08:16.249 --> 08:19.599 toe. The top is this helmet that 08:19.596 --> 08:24.806 comes up over his face and covers it pretty totally. 08:24.810 --> 08:31.330 It's made of strong metal, it's got very thin slits to be 08:31.327 --> 08:36.097 able to see straight ahead, covered up; 08:36.100 --> 08:40.480 everything else is covered up, a good one will cover your neck 08:40.481 --> 08:43.851 as well. It's very hard to see very much 08:43.845 --> 08:48.535 and you can't anywhere pretty much but straight ahead. 08:48.539 --> 08:52.679 You shouldn't be able to hear very much either, 08:52.676 --> 08:58.066 and it mustn't have been too delightful to breathe out of the 08:58.070 --> 09:01.070 thing, although your nose is free, 09:01.072 --> 09:03.722 but it's covered by a nose piece. 09:03.720 --> 09:07.210 So there's this guy with this helmet, it must weigh--I'm 09:07.208 --> 09:09.878 trying to think. I always want to--modern 09:09.878 --> 09:13.568 football helmets which are monstrous--I'm so old we used to 09:13.571 --> 09:16.501 play with leather ones without a face mask. 09:16.500 --> 09:18.230 What do they weigh? Got any football players here? 09:21.790 --> 09:22.390 I think they weigh a lot. 09:25.490 --> 09:27.770 I think they're very heavy, indeed, but I don't know how 09:27.765 --> 09:30.085 much they weigh. Anyway, if you imagine sort of 09:30.085 --> 09:33.175 putting on a modern football helmet, with that mask in front 09:33.184 --> 09:35.704 of you, you would begin to get an idea, 09:35.696 --> 09:39.346 only begin to get an idea of what it was like to have that 09:39.347 --> 09:43.237 bronze helmet on your head. So there you are with that. 09:43.240 --> 09:48.350 Then you remember that you got shin guards down to your feet; 09:48.350 --> 09:53.310 you have this breastplate. Now, between your waist and 09:53.305 --> 09:58.725 your shin guard there's some very delicate territory, 09:58.727 --> 10:04.017 and there's no armor. That's what your shield is for. 10:04.019 --> 10:06.979 Your shield should cover that territory. 10:06.980 --> 10:11.060 You want that shield up so that it pretty well meets your 10:11.064 --> 10:15.444 helmet, so it's going to be at a certain distance but it will 10:15.440 --> 10:19.160 also go down to where it needs to go down here. 10:19.159 --> 10:23.499 If everything goes right your enemy won't be able to penetrate 10:23.496 --> 10:27.686 you, but you should be aware that there are two places where 10:27.690 --> 10:30.960 you are relatively vulnerable for openers, 10:30.960 --> 10:34.670 and that is, if somebody can come in above 10:34.666 --> 10:39.996 your shield, your throat is going to be available to him, 10:40.000 --> 10:43.490 and if somebody can come in under your shield then your 10:43.493 --> 10:46.343 vulnerable area will be vulnerable indeed. 10:46.340 --> 10:50.960 So, those are places where you see people get wounded and 10:50.956 --> 10:55.416 killed, if that can be done. One other very important 10:55.423 --> 10:59.623 thing to understand about this defensive problem and this is 10:59.624 --> 11:03.614 one of the debatable issues between the old guard and the 11:03.611 --> 11:07.071 traditional interpretation; I'm still giving you the 11:07.072 --> 11:09.632 traditional view. If you imagine that your 11:09.633 --> 11:13.683 hoplite is standing with his left foot slightly extended in 11:13.676 --> 11:16.906 front of his right, and we'll see in a moment it 11:16.911 --> 11:20.681 pretty well has to be in order to deal with the spear that he's 11:20.680 --> 11:23.550 grasping, and if he's holding his shield 11:23.551 --> 11:27.051 as he must this far, then he's got a half a shield 11:27.050 --> 11:30.910 sticking out in this direction so that he's pretty well 11:30.905 --> 11:35.495 protected on the left side, but he's got nothing protecting 11:35.498 --> 11:38.838 his right side. If somebody can come at him 11:38.835 --> 11:42.085 from this side, he is very vulnerable from 11:42.094 --> 11:44.624 there. Now, that's a very important 11:44.623 --> 11:48.583 point, because why in the world would you give a shield of the 11:48.575 --> 11:52.395 kind I am describing, for a man to defend himself, 11:52.399 --> 11:56.369 if you imagine him standing by himself anywhere, 11:56.370 --> 12:00.210 if you imagine him any distance from the rest of the guys 12:00.210 --> 12:03.920 fighting alongside of him. This has been one of the major 12:03.920 --> 12:07.260 reasons for explaining the function of the phalanx 12:07.261 --> 12:10.541 as I will explain it to you.What are you going to do 12:10.543 --> 12:13.053 about the vulnerability on this side? 12:13.049 --> 12:16.549 Well, the answer is, in the traditional view, 12:16.546 --> 12:20.436 is that he was never meant to stand by himself. 12:20.440 --> 12:25.050 A hoplite only makes sense in a phalanx. 12:25.049 --> 12:30.089 A phalanx understood in this way only makes sense if you 12:30.093 --> 12:34.173 imagine very close order. Basically, ideally, 12:34.173 --> 12:40.023 the right side of my shield is being met by the left side of 12:40.021 --> 12:45.571 the shield of the guy to my right so that we make a solid 12:45.572 --> 12:51.522 block of soldiers able to defend ourselves imperfectly, 12:51.519 --> 12:54.009 but really essentially quite well. 12:54.009 --> 12:55.759 Obviously, some of us are going to get killed, 12:55.763 --> 12:58.223 some of us are going to go down and we'll cope with that in just 12:58.218 --> 13:00.748 a few minutes, but if you think of us as a 13:00.745 --> 13:03.985 unit we have a way of maintaining our security, 13:03.990 --> 13:09.520 our safety, so long as we remain in the proper formation 13:09.515 --> 13:14.255 that I have been describing. Let me talk about the 13:14.259 --> 13:17.969 offensive aspect of it. The idea of going into battle 13:17.971 --> 13:20.591 is not merely to avoid being killed; 13:20.590 --> 13:23.480 the purpose is to kill the other fellow. 13:23.480 --> 13:27.910 How do you do it? The hoplite has two weapons of 13:27.914 --> 13:32.464 which the most important by far is a pike, I guess, 13:32.456 --> 13:36.686 is what we would call it. It's a spear that you don't 13:36.691 --> 13:40.741 throw. It's a spear that you thrust 13:40.741 --> 13:47.961 and it's got a bronze point, which is the business end of 13:47.964 --> 13:52.364 the weapon. Its length might be anywhere 13:52.362 --> 13:55.512 from six to eight feet in length. 13:55.509 --> 13:59.199 I said bronze, but actually the tip was 13:59.202 --> 14:03.772 usually iron, but it could be bronze as well. 14:03.769 --> 14:08.269 In addition, it had a butt made also of 14:08.272 --> 14:13.132 bronze, which could be a lethal weapon. 14:13.129 --> 14:17.479 If I strike you in a vulnerable place with a stick that has a 14:17.480 --> 14:20.670 bronze butt on it, it could well kill you. 14:20.669 --> 14:25.639 It would happen because the spear itself was made of wood 14:25.641 --> 14:31.061 and that meant you can count on it often breaking in the midst 14:31.057 --> 14:33.067 of battle, in which case, 14:33.070 --> 14:36.260 if you have one end of it or the other you can still have a 14:36.259 --> 14:39.559 point that you can use to help yourself in this scrum that it 14:39.559 --> 14:41.759 is a hoplite phalanx battle. 14:45.509 --> 14:49.149 Although I don't quite understand--I should say, 14:49.153 --> 14:53.303 there's many things about how the fighting went on which we 14:53.297 --> 14:57.507 can only attempt to imagine because we just don't have films 14:57.512 --> 15:01.382 of ancient hoplite battles, I'm sorry to say. 15:01.379 --> 15:04.449 We have people inventing them, but even the ones that are 15:04.450 --> 15:07.580 invented aren't very helpful, because it's awfully hard to 15:07.576 --> 15:11.476 know how they did what they did. But I think we can imagine some 15:11.476 --> 15:13.896 part of it more easily than the other. 15:13.899 --> 15:16.779 What I was going to say is that you could, at least 15:16.782 --> 15:19.152 theoretically, strike with your spear in a 15:19.146 --> 15:22.486 overhand manner or you could strike with it in an underhand 15:22.490 --> 15:24.540 manner, the only thing is I don't know 15:24.544 --> 15:26.944 how you do that underhand when you're in the middle of a 15:26.937 --> 15:29.627 phalanx. So, I will be talking about the 15:29.633 --> 15:32.163 overhand stroke, which I find it easier to 15:32.164 --> 15:32.724 grasp. 15:36.129 --> 15:40.179 So, let's see if I can, again, give you some sense of 15:40.181 --> 15:41.741 what this is like. 15:46.539 --> 15:53.409 Here's a hoplite standing like this, and when he comes into 15:53.405 --> 16:00.625 contact with the opposing army, he will presumably strike down 16:00.626 --> 16:03.956 in this way. There are other things that he 16:03.964 --> 16:05.514 can do. His shield, 16:05.512 --> 16:08.462 in addition to being a defensive thing, 16:08.457 --> 16:11.787 is also potentially an offensive weapon. 16:11.789 --> 16:16.019 He can belt you with that shield, and if he's stronger 16:16.021 --> 16:19.131 than you are, or better prepared or more 16:19.134 --> 16:22.784 balanced than you are, he could knock your shield out 16:22.778 --> 16:25.468 of your hand. He could knock you back and 16:25.470 --> 16:28.380 open up a space, he could knock you down, 16:28.375 --> 16:32.725 and so you should imagine that there's at least one chance to 16:32.732 --> 16:37.392 give a guy shot with the shield, and after that you could just 16:37.386 --> 16:41.316 be using it as something to press the other fellow back and 16:41.320 --> 16:45.190 you would meanwhile be whacking away with this in the most 16:45.186 --> 16:49.316 simple picture that you can have of how the hoplite would have 16:49.324 --> 16:53.064 conducted himself. The other weapon was a short 16:53.063 --> 16:57.443 sword that he kept at his side, which presumably he would not 16:57.441 --> 17:01.821 use so long as he had a spear, which was a better weapon. 17:01.820 --> 17:04.310 But if that broke, if that wasn't available to 17:04.313 --> 17:06.533 him, he could turn to his short sword, 17:06.529 --> 17:11.009 which was a thrusting sword, not like the Roman short sword 17:11.006 --> 17:13.936 which was double edged and slashing. 17:13.940 --> 17:19.530 You had to stick somebody with this hoplite phalanx 17:19.526 --> 17:22.076 sword. Now, that gives you the 17:22.075 --> 17:25.985 picture of the individual; I hope you can get some sense 17:25.985 --> 17:30.125 of what the phalanx might be like, but as I try to 17:30.127 --> 17:33.157 describe how the fighting really went, 17:33.160 --> 17:36.100 I always find it necessary to ask for some audience 17:36.103 --> 17:38.633 participation, so that you can get some idea 17:38.634 --> 17:41.464 of what it might have looked like in a very, 17:41.460 --> 17:44.770 very limited way. So, I would like to ask for 17:44.774 --> 17:48.674 some volunteer hoplites. The Greeks, as far as I know, 17:48.673 --> 17:52.953 did not allow anybody to be left handed in a phalanx; 17:52.950 --> 17:56.560 think about the problem. But we don't care; 17:56.560 --> 17:57.060 you can be a lefty. 18:00.890 --> 18:03.320 Of course, the Greeks only allowed men to fight in the 18:03.320 --> 18:05.340 phalanx, but we are much more elevated 18:05.338 --> 18:08.188 than that. So, I could ask any of you who 18:08.187 --> 18:12.967 have the courage to come forward and fight in my phalanx? 18:12.970 --> 18:14.970 Nobody? Just come forward. 18:19.840 --> 18:20.550 I think we got more room here. 18:44.190 --> 18:48.260 Okay, why don't I have the shorter people comes toward me 18:48.260 --> 18:51.240 and the taller people go into the back. 18:51.240 --> 18:52.650 I think this will make it a little easier for us, 18:52.650 --> 18:53.650 just line up next to each other. 18:59.950 --> 19:02.160 Right behind him in perfect order; 19:02.160 --> 19:06.460 the biggest guys in the back, go ahead. 19:06.460 --> 19:11.250 Make it a third row; there's enough for a third row. 19:11.250 --> 19:12.900 Are we all set? Back up. 19:12.900 --> 19:14.680 Make sure you're behind somebody, directly behind 19:14.681 --> 19:16.121 somebody. How many we got up front? 19:16.120 --> 19:19.610 Four? Have we got four? 19:19.609 --> 19:22.079 So we'll have three in the back that'll be all right. 19:22.080 --> 19:25.050 Get right behind that guy; you got to be--boy you got to 19:25.045 --> 19:29.865 be lined up. Now, get into your hoplite 19:29.872 --> 19:35.872 stance, left foot forward. Okay, now when you're 19:35.867 --> 19:39.937 fighting, if you're fortunate enough, and the Greeks were 19:39.937 --> 19:43.857 sometimes fortunate enough to fight people who were not 19:43.862 --> 19:47.442 hoplites, like when the Persians came at 19:47.437 --> 19:51.527 them they fought hoplites against non-hoplites. 19:51.529 --> 19:55.529 Boy, that's a nice day for a hoplite. 19:55.529 --> 19:58.429 The Persian infantry did not have heavy armor, 19:58.426 --> 20:01.966 they did not have that kind of a shield, they had wicker 20:01.967 --> 20:03.717 shields; fortunately, 20:03.722 --> 20:07.492 we have vase paintings that show us Persians. 20:07.490 --> 20:10.520 For one thing they're not dressed like civilized people in 20:10.523 --> 20:12.283 a dress, they're wearing pants. 20:15.799 --> 20:19.689 But their shields are made of wicker and they don't have that 20:19.694 --> 20:22.684 kind of metal body armor and all that stuff. 20:22.680 --> 20:27.680 So, you could blow through that infantry like butter. 20:27.680 --> 20:32.820 Probably never that easy but really, you're just not going to 20:32.824 --> 20:37.454 lose, and the truth of the matter is that hoplites beat 20:37.453 --> 20:42.433 non-hoplites in all battles that are fought on flat land in 20:42.426 --> 20:45.766 battles that the Greeks fight in. 20:45.769 --> 20:50.029 I just want to tell you about--in Herodotus, 20:50.028 --> 20:55.008 he tells the tale about how the fighting went versus the 20:55.012 --> 20:58.312 Persians, and here's the line he says, 20:58.307 --> 21:02.837 "Once the Greeks go to war they choose the best and smoothest 21:02.843 --> 21:06.703 place to go down and have their battle on that." 21:06.700 --> 21:10.370 That wasn't just because they sort of had an aesthetic 21:10.372 --> 21:14.552 pleasure in nice flat fields. That's what you need for a 21:14.554 --> 21:17.534 phalanx, because to maintain the 21:17.527 --> 21:21.767 integrity of the hoplite line, you can't have bumps and 21:21.771 --> 21:24.681 grooves, and trees and rivers in the way; 21:24.680 --> 21:27.890 it will break things up. So, they do, 21:27.887 --> 21:31.967 in fact, seek such a field. So if you're fighting a 21:31.968 --> 21:34.868 non-hoplite infantry crowd, you're in great shape. 21:34.869 --> 21:39.379 But what the Greeks spent most of their time doing was fighting 21:39.384 --> 21:43.244 each other, one hoplite phalanx against another 21:43.243 --> 21:47.243 hoplite phalanx. So, you have to imagine 21:47.240 --> 21:51.530 that this thing started with these guys back in their camp 21:51.527 --> 21:54.457 and the other army back in its camp, 21:54.460 --> 21:58.480 and they both have to agree that they want to have a battle, 21:58.482 --> 22:01.842 for a battle to take place, and they will have picked a 22:01.838 --> 22:04.748 place that is flat where they can do what they're doing. 22:04.750 --> 22:08.960 Usually, the battle took place over some land that was being 22:08.961 --> 22:13.391 contested on a frontier and they would go down to that area and 22:13.387 --> 22:18.167 pick a spot and there they would go and fight with one another. 22:18.170 --> 22:22.480 So now, the two armies are lined up. 22:22.480 --> 22:28.160 Here's an interesting question: how wide is the line going to 22:28.156 --> 22:31.186 be? Well, that's not an answer that 22:31.192 --> 22:36.072 is entirely at the disposal of the general, because he's got 22:36.069 --> 22:40.119 two considerations that he has to worry about. 22:40.119 --> 22:44.539 One is, he can't afford to have his hoplite line outflanked, 22:44.538 --> 22:48.878 because if I can come around and take care of this guy from 22:48.881 --> 22:52.021 this side, he is engaged with a guy who's 22:52.023 --> 22:55.443 right opposite him, I can just kill him no problem 22:55.442 --> 22:58.642 at all. So, he has got to at least try 22:58.643 --> 23:02.983 to be equal with the guy who's furthest on this side, 23:02.982 --> 23:06.572 and same with the guy on the other side. 23:06.569 --> 23:10.189 So, that means he's got to make his line unless he comes up with 23:10.191 --> 23:13.181 some clever trick, the same size as the other guy. 23:13.180 --> 23:18.770 Well, typically the two armies aren't identical in size. 23:18.769 --> 23:23.159 So, if you're going to try to be the same breadth across the 23:23.157 --> 23:26.947 field that's going to affect how deep you can be, 23:26.950 --> 23:31.850 and depth as we shall see once we get started fighting is 23:31.849 --> 23:35.699 relevant in ways that we need to work out, 23:35.700 --> 23:38.980 but if one phalanx is eight deep and the other 23:38.982 --> 23:43.002 phalanx is 12 deep, the 12 deep phalanx has 23:43.000 --> 23:45.610 an advantage. So, numbers count, 23:45.608 --> 23:50.798 but it's not an easy one-to-one question, various issues will 23:50.802 --> 23:56.162 determine who comes out ahead. Okay, now let's make this first 23:56.157 --> 24:01.307 battle I'm going to describe for you to be as clear cut as we can 24:01.313 --> 24:05.183 make it, and it probably never was like that. 24:05.180 --> 24:09.250 Let's imagine my army is the same size as theirs precisely, 24:09.245 --> 24:12.745 so that the line is the same size on both sides; 24:16.680 --> 24:19.990 therefore, also the same depth. So, we'll just do this 24:19.986 --> 24:21.716 imaginary perfect battle. 24:26.160 --> 24:31.060 As the two armies approach each other, I should make it clear, 24:31.057 --> 24:34.507 they start out walking at a certain clip. 24:34.509 --> 24:38.039 By the way, it's critical that they should stay in formation; 24:38.039 --> 24:39.749 nobody should get ahead of anybody else. 24:39.750 --> 24:43.050 How do you do that? With rhythm and in subsequent 24:43.046 --> 24:46.936 armies later in history, they used drums to maintain 24:46.944 --> 24:50.184 that technique. The Greeks did it by the 24:50.178 --> 24:54.828 playing of a flute like or oboe like instrument that played a 24:54.825 --> 24:59.085 military tune that had you marching forward at the right 24:59.085 --> 25:01.405 pace. That was very, very important. 25:01.410 --> 25:04.040 So you're marching forward at that pace, 25:04.035 --> 25:07.085 but now as you get closer and closer to each other, 25:07.088 --> 25:10.018 various items begin to affect your behavior. 25:10.020 --> 25:16.880 One is, I would think, fear. In fact, I know--fear. 25:16.880 --> 25:21.000 So, what do you do, supposing, if you feel like 25:21.003 --> 25:24.443 running? Can you boys in the first row 25:24.435 --> 25:27.405 run anywhere? You got seven guys behind you; 25:27.410 --> 25:29.910 that's not even an option and that's a very important aspect 25:29.912 --> 25:32.502 of the phalanx. That's not even an issue. 25:32.500 --> 25:34.150 So, if you're afraid, what are you afraid of? 25:34.150 --> 25:37.300 Well, the other guy has got people--I should have mentioned 25:37.298 --> 25:39.828 on the sidelines, one way or another, 25:39.832 --> 25:43.632 shooting arrows at you, throwing javelins at you, 25:43.628 --> 25:47.048 things like that. You want to get through that as 25:47.045 --> 25:49.645 fast as you can, and engage with the enemy. 25:49.650 --> 25:53.470 But there's another reason why you want to get there fast is 25:53.470 --> 25:57.350 because, well by now, I should have pointed out that 25:57.351 --> 26:02.371 we know that before you started out the battle that your general 26:02.374 --> 26:06.764 gave you a meal and he also gave you plenty of wine, 26:06.759 --> 26:10.859 so that by the time you're in this position, 26:10.855 --> 26:14.565 you've had a few and there's--I mean, 26:14.569 --> 26:17.029 there's a science to that too as perhaps some of you know. 26:17.030 --> 26:19.830 No you don't. College students do not have a 26:19.826 --> 26:22.326 science of this at all, they just pour the stuff down 26:22.333 --> 26:25.233 their throats with the goal of becoming drunk as fast as they 26:25.226 --> 26:28.316 can. That's barbaric in the 26:28.316 --> 26:31.726 technical sense. I mean, the Greeks 26:31.731 --> 26:33.711 didn't--Plato's Symposium, 26:33.710 --> 26:37.670 all of these guys are sitting around having a drinking party. 26:37.670 --> 26:41.950 That's all they do all night, but they also are talking and 26:41.954 --> 26:45.504 they're talking very well as a matter of fact, 26:45.500 --> 26:49.080 and the goal of this conversation is, 26:49.079 --> 26:54.049 or of this party rather, symposium means by the way 26:54.052 --> 26:57.922 drinking together. So they're drinking and they're 26:57.919 --> 27:01.119 talking, and both of these are supposed to go on at the same 27:01.116 --> 27:02.756 time. And here's the thing; 27:02.759 --> 27:08.959 the idea is to drink as much as you can without passing out and 27:08.960 --> 27:13.960 at the end of Plato's Symposium everybody is 27:13.960 --> 27:16.300 out, except for Socrates who looks 27:16.296 --> 27:18.676 around and says, "oh well no more conversation 27:18.681 --> 27:21.181 everybody's asleep." Off he goes, 27:21.182 --> 27:26.012 and we know who won that one. Why could they do that? 27:26.009 --> 27:31.319 Well, they weren't ignorant undergraduates, 27:31.317 --> 27:35.237 but beyond that they drank wine, 27:35.240 --> 27:38.500 not those barbarian liquids that you drink, 27:38.501 --> 27:41.841 and also they mixed that wine with water, 27:41.839 --> 27:44.959 so that it shouldn't get them drunk too fast. 27:44.960 --> 27:49.220 Think about how the world has decayed, since those days. 27:49.220 --> 27:54.240 So anyway, it still has its alcoholic consequences, 27:54.237 --> 28:00.157 and I like to think that the trick for these guys was to get 28:00.157 --> 28:05.877 to that level of inebriation before it affects your nerves 28:05.876 --> 28:09.786 and your physical ability to act. 28:09.789 --> 28:15.239 But it's worked on your brain to the point where you get to 28:15.244 --> 28:19.854 that sort of what I like to think of that bar room 28:19.853 --> 28:22.483 militancy, whereby if a guy says, 28:22.477 --> 28:25.447 "would you pass the peanuts," you say, "oh yeah!" 28:31.619 --> 28:36.199 I'd like to think that's the ideal hoplite mode. 28:36.200 --> 28:39.700 So, I think that's working on them, they want to get at those 28:39.699 --> 28:42.789 SOBs on the other side, and they want to kill them; 28:42.790 --> 28:46.380 that's their mood. Well, all of that is working on 28:46.379 --> 28:48.659 both sides. And so that when they come 28:48.664 --> 28:50.844 together, they come together in a trot. 28:50.839 --> 28:53.829 You have to imagine they're moving along quicker than you 28:53.825 --> 28:56.275 would by walking, so that they will go bang and 28:56.277 --> 28:58.357 we can see what happens. However, 28:58.358 --> 29:01.448 there's one other variable that you want to be aware of and that 29:01.445 --> 29:04.435 is, he knows he ought to be going 29:04.440 --> 29:09.190 straight ahead like that, but he also knows that his 29:09.188 --> 29:12.948 right flank is open. Well, he would love to be 29:12.951 --> 29:15.551 fighting at the edge of the Grand Canyon, 29:15.547 --> 29:19.307 so that he doesn't have to worry about his right flank, 29:19.309 --> 29:21.379 but he's out there in the middle of a field. 29:21.380 --> 29:24.640 Now, he knows that first step ought to be like this, 29:24.639 --> 29:28.089 but he's only human, so the first step is like this, 29:28.089 --> 29:30.979 and so is the guy on the other end on that side. 29:30.980 --> 29:33.060 So, in fact, as Thucydides tells us 29:33.064 --> 29:36.134 beautifully in Book V, when the two armies actually 29:36.129 --> 29:40.359 hit each other they have already made a slight turn to the right. 29:40.359 --> 29:43.239 Everybody moves to the right, these guys move to the right, 29:43.236 --> 29:46.156 those guys move to the right and they're smacking each other 29:46.163 --> 29:50.943 at something like that angle. Okay so much for that. 29:50.940 --> 29:56.200 Now, here we go. I'm coming at this guy and what 29:56.199 --> 29:59.859 I want to do, if I can, I want to kill him. 29:59.859 --> 30:04.599 If I can't, I want to knock him back, because what I really need 30:04.597 --> 30:07.377 to do is to get him out of the way. 30:07.380 --> 30:11.050 Let me imagine that I've been lucky enough to get you out of 30:11.046 --> 30:14.396 the way--you're fighting him you can't even look at me, 30:14.402 --> 30:15.772 but I can do that. 30:20.930 --> 30:22.970 But let's face it. In order to kill you, 30:22.967 --> 30:25.507 I'd have to earn the privilege by knocking him back. 30:25.509 --> 30:29.079 Now, let's imagine I've been very lucky and gotten to 30:29.083 --> 30:33.183 you--just get down on your knee. Imagine she's very badly 30:33.177 --> 30:35.957 wounded or dead, but she's out of it. 30:35.960 --> 30:39.970 Now, here's where the ballgame can really be determined. 30:39.970 --> 30:41.950 First of all, let's consider the man behind 30:41.947 --> 30:44.877 you. Is that you? 30:44.880 --> 30:48.160 Now, if you are standing there with your--by the way the first 30:48.162 --> 30:50.802 three rows have a chance of hitting each other. 30:50.799 --> 30:54.679 So, he's banging away over somebody's head at the guy on 30:54.678 --> 30:57.778 the other side, but you see this guy in front 30:57.780 --> 31:00.460 of you has just been knocked down. 31:00.460 --> 31:04.590 The blood is spurting out of her neck or her side or whatever 31:04.591 --> 31:07.691 and she's groaning down there on the thing. 31:07.690 --> 31:08.620 What is your instinct? 31:13.650 --> 31:17.630 What's your instinct? Tell me. 31:17.630 --> 31:21.310 Get out of here! They just killed this guy in 31:21.306 --> 31:23.846 front of me and they're coming after me. 31:23.849 --> 31:27.649 I always think of that wonderful scene in--how many of 31:27.653 --> 31:30.193 you ever saw the Longest Day? 31:30.190 --> 31:32.450 It is about D-Day; there's a wonderful scene where 31:32.446 --> 31:35.526 this German officer comes down; he's in charge of the defensive 31:35.534 --> 31:39.014 arrangements there at Normandy; he's in a bunker, 31:39.006 --> 31:43.696 and he's reporting back to headquarters and it's dark, 31:43.703 --> 31:48.753 and suddenly there's enough light that he sees suddenly on 31:48.754 --> 31:53.544 the horizon is 5,000 ships, the whole damn fleet. 31:53.539 --> 31:55.719 As he calls back and he says, "they're coming, 31:55.718 --> 31:59.168 they're coming." They say, "how many?" 31:59.170 --> 32:01.910 He says, "thousands of them." They say, "in what direction?" 32:01.910 --> 32:04.350 He says, "auf mich zu direct." 32:07.400 --> 32:13.010 That's the way it looks to him. So that's what his tendency is, 32:13.006 --> 32:16.916 but if he does that, it's very bad news for his 32:16.919 --> 32:20.719 city. What he has been trained to 32:20.719 --> 32:27.059 do, what he knows he needs to do is to fight forward and somehow 32:27.059 --> 32:29.609 step over her, step on her, 32:29.614 --> 32:32.714 do whatever he has to do to fill this hole. 32:32.710 --> 32:36.360 He's got to come forward and take the danger and take the 32:36.360 --> 32:39.930 blows and close the line. Because if not--now, 32:39.929 --> 32:45.359 I am in the situation where the guy next to me has beaten you 32:45.357 --> 32:48.617 up, but I can now get her and I can 32:48.616 --> 32:52.206 step in here, and the guy behind me can do 32:52.208 --> 32:55.628 the same, and so we can create a wedge in 32:55.631 --> 33:00.451 which we are doing the killing and they are doing the falling. 33:00.450 --> 33:05.340 If enough of that happens, after awhile some sense of 33:05.344 --> 33:10.334 what's happening up front quickly works its way to the 33:10.332 --> 33:12.902 back, and there can be a moment, 33:12.900 --> 33:16.210 and there always is a moment in a hoplite battle, 33:16.210 --> 33:21.320 where the guys in the back say, "uh-oh we have lost this 33:21.320 --> 33:24.510 battle." So, the guys in the back turn 33:24.514 --> 33:29.204 and run, which is the only thing you can possibly do once you 33:29.200 --> 33:32.090 feel our phalanx is broken. 33:32.089 --> 33:34.909 We can't stand against them anymore and when you start 33:34.910 --> 33:38.260 running, the only thing the guys who are left up front can do is 33:38.264 --> 33:42.594 run. Now, think of what it's like to 33:42.588 --> 33:47.778 run with this in your hand. Can you make much speed that 33:47.781 --> 33:51.021 way? No, and speed is what you want. 33:51.019 --> 33:54.809 And so the big issue is--this is what you must never do, 33:54.810 --> 33:58.600 but this is what you got to do if your phalanx is 33:58.601 --> 34:02.311 broken. You got to drop your shield and 34:02.305 --> 34:04.335 run. Then I'm on the winning side, 34:04.344 --> 34:07.694 and what I want to do is kill as many of these guys as I can. 34:07.690 --> 34:12.470 However, there's this great question of how far do the 34:12.465 --> 34:15.705 Greeks pursue in a hoplite battle? 34:15.710 --> 34:18.890 Thucydides has an interesting passage in there, 34:18.893 --> 34:22.423 in which he says that the Spartans win the Battle of 34:22.422 --> 34:26.572 Mantinea and Thucydides says that the Spartans did not pursue 34:26.574 --> 34:29.504 the hoplite. The Spartans never pursue their 34:29.502 --> 34:32.202 enemies very far. It's as though he's explaining, 34:32.202 --> 34:34.982 giving an answer to a question that somebody asked, 34:34.980 --> 34:37.980 "why didn't the Spartans do better in that battle?" 34:37.980 --> 34:41.370 To which there could many answers at the Battle of 34:41.367 --> 34:45.097 Mantinea, but it seems there's a much easier answer. 34:45.099 --> 34:50.339 Basically, the Greeks couldn't pursue very hotly with infantry. 34:50.340 --> 34:52.720 They don't want to throw their shields away, 34:52.718 --> 34:55.588 they want to keep their shields, so guys with shields 34:55.593 --> 34:57.643 are chasing guys without shields. 34:57.639 --> 35:00.179 So, they're not going to chase them very far. 35:00.179 --> 35:04.609 Now, another issue that emerges in discussion of these 35:04.606 --> 35:07.476 kinds of battles is the casualties. 35:07.480 --> 35:11.640 For a long, long time the general wisdom was there were 35:11.636 --> 35:16.326 not heavy casualties in hoplite battles--people calculating on 35:16.332 --> 35:21.292 what I was just talking about. But then an old Yalie who took 35:21.293 --> 35:25.513 this course when he was very young, and later became an 35:25.511 --> 35:30.251 ancient Greek historian, took the wonderfully outlandish 35:30.250 --> 35:33.220 device of answering this question. 35:33.219 --> 35:37.179 He simply took all the battles in Greek history that we have a 35:37.184 --> 35:41.154 record of, and which we know what the casualties were like, 35:41.150 --> 35:45.710 and counted and he concluded--anybody can check 35:45.710 --> 35:51.560 because there they are--that casualties could run as high as 35:51.559 --> 35:57.739 15% at a hoplite battle. That's a high casualty rate and 35:57.737 --> 36:02.367 many a military unit will break if they have that many 36:02.367 --> 36:06.777 casualties. Actually, what he finds is the 36:06.777 --> 36:13.367 winning side would lose about 5% and the losing side would lose 36:13.365 --> 36:18.355 maybe as much 15%, and so you get some idea. 36:18.360 --> 36:21.810 But don't imagine that these were anything like bloodless or 36:21.810 --> 36:23.870 easy. They were bloody, 36:23.870 --> 36:28.240 although the actual amount would vary with the 36:28.239 --> 36:32.459 circumstances. Now, you know the battle is 36:32.460 --> 36:36.810 over in a variety of ways. One, the enemy ran away; 36:36.810 --> 36:39.940 that's pretty good. But for the Greeks it was very 36:39.939 --> 36:43.089 important that things should be really official. 36:43.090 --> 36:47.700 There were, and there's a lot of debate about what I'm going 36:47.702 --> 36:51.922 to say next, there were protocols of fighting that were 36:51.923 --> 36:54.983 followed. Some people want to have these 36:54.983 --> 36:57.843 to be many and for them to be very binding, 36:57.844 --> 37:01.664 others want them to be very few and not very binding, 37:01.659 --> 37:04.489 and that's an argument one can get into. 37:04.489 --> 37:07.429 But some things seem to be indisputable, 37:07.432 --> 37:10.532 for instance, if I say we won the battle I 37:10.525 --> 37:13.765 can prove that to you most of the time. 37:13.770 --> 37:17.620 Why? Because I now occupy the land 37:17.619 --> 37:22.119 that we fought on. Therefore, I can do what they 37:22.118 --> 37:23.398 did. Take a stick, 37:23.399 --> 37:26.739 bang it into the ground, hang on that stick a captured 37:26.739 --> 37:27.369 helmet, 37:33.059 --> 37:36.279 or a captured corselet, something that represents the 37:36.278 --> 37:39.928 military equipment that the losers had that were left on the 37:39.930 --> 37:41.440 field. We hang it up; 37:41.440 --> 37:47.100 that is called a trophy. The word trophy comes from the 37:47.101 --> 37:51.251 word that means to turn, trepho, 37:51.245 --> 37:57.895 and it means that this is the place where the enemy turned and 37:57.898 --> 38:00.638 ran. We own that property now, 38:00.639 --> 38:03.949 we own their equipment, and therefore we won the 38:03.946 --> 38:06.466 battle. Another tangible way of 38:06.468 --> 38:09.628 understanding who won the battle and who didn't, 38:09.634 --> 38:12.614 is we winners, because we own the field, 38:12.607 --> 38:16.917 we can pick up the casualties, take care of those who can be 38:16.921 --> 38:19.961 saved, bury the ones who have been 38:19.956 --> 38:22.676 killed; we don't have to ask anybody's 38:22.681 --> 38:26.541 permission. Burial is very critical. 38:26.539 --> 38:30.219 If you remember from reading the Iliad and 38:30.217 --> 38:33.507 Odyssey, it is absolutely critical in 38:33.512 --> 38:37.652 the Greek religion that people be properly buried, 38:37.650 --> 38:41.320 because if they're not, then their shade goes on 38:41.317 --> 38:45.627 forever in misery and pain. They cannot rest quietly in 38:45.627 --> 38:49.417 Hades unless their body has been properly buried; 38:49.420 --> 38:54.490 so you got to do it. The losing side must come to 38:54.493 --> 38:59.553 the winning side and they must ask permission to pick up their 38:59.554 --> 39:03.374 dead and bury them. Typically, that is granted and 39:03.369 --> 39:06.749 they can then do it, but they are of course humbling 39:06.751 --> 39:11.001 themselves by making the request and coming down under the orders 39:10.995 --> 39:15.235 of the winners and taking their dead away and being buried. 39:15.239 --> 39:17.879 So it's very, very clear who won and who lost 39:17.880 --> 39:21.480 and that's--I think it's a very important point because Greek 39:21.480 --> 39:25.290 hoplite warfare, which is the characteristic 39:25.287 --> 39:30.687 warfare of the Greeks from the eighth century on into the 39:30.694 --> 39:34.084 fourth, never loses its character as a 39:34.084 --> 39:37.724 kind of a game, in which there are winners and 39:37.721 --> 39:40.551 losers, and the winners are given the 39:40.551 --> 39:43.481 prize and the losers don't get the prize. 39:43.480 --> 39:47.780 It's a contest just like everything else in Greek society 39:47.776 --> 39:52.216 and there's a tremendous amount of pride that goes into victory 39:52.215 --> 39:56.435 and a tremendous amount of shame that goes into defeat. 39:56.440 --> 39:59.180 But we said the same thing about the Homeric heroes, 39:59.184 --> 40:01.444 didn't we? Here's the difference; 40:01.440 --> 40:05.570 they're not fighting for themselves, they're not fighting 40:05.570 --> 40:09.430 for their families, and only to limited extent are 40:09.430 --> 40:14.130 they fighting for their personal glory, their kleios; 40:14.130 --> 40:19.440 they are fighting for their city, and they will be honored 40:19.438 --> 40:23.628 by their city in victory or even in defeat, 40:23.630 --> 40:27.650 if they perform very heroically, and of course, 40:27.646 --> 40:31.136 what about if they were very shameful? 40:31.140 --> 40:36.490 What about if they run away? I think I want to save the 40:36.494 --> 40:40.094 illustration of that one until we talk about Sparta. 40:40.090 --> 40:45.570 What Tyrtaeus tells us very, very specifically how bad that 40:45.567 --> 40:47.677 is; it's bad. 40:47.679 --> 40:52.869 So, you have this tremendous continuity between the sort of 40:52.870 --> 40:58.150 the honor code that was so dominant in the Homeric world, 40:58.150 --> 41:01.640 which has now been shifted to the larger unit, 41:01.639 --> 41:06.159 which is the polis. If you can see it, 41:06.158 --> 41:09.968 all adult males fought. I should back up; 41:09.970 --> 41:13.460 that's not quite true. There's an important point I 41:13.463 --> 41:16.643 didn't make. Not everybody gets to fight in 41:16.635 --> 41:20.205 the hoplite phalanx. The town, the city, 41:20.209 --> 41:24.509 the polis does not provide the fighters with their 41:24.510 --> 41:27.490 defensive armor. They might sometime give them 41:27.493 --> 41:29.913 their weapons, but not their defensive armor. 41:29.909 --> 41:32.999 You can't fight as a hoplite, in other words, 41:32.997 --> 41:36.857 unless you can afford to pay for your equipment and that 41:36.856 --> 41:40.716 excludes a goodly number of citizens who are too poor to 41:40.715 --> 41:44.245 fight in the phalanx. This becomes a very, 41:44.248 --> 41:48.918 very large issue because the notion that there should be a 41:48.919 --> 41:53.179 real connection between citizenship in the full sense 41:53.179 --> 41:58.259 and military performance is totally a Greek idea--I mean, 41:58.260 --> 42:01.210 the Greeks just totally accept that idea. 42:01.210 --> 42:04.560 Actually, later on at the end of the fourth century when 42:04.560 --> 42:07.180 Aristotle is writing his Politics, 42:07.179 --> 42:10.709 he makes really a very clear connection as to the style of 42:10.712 --> 42:14.062 fighting and the kind of constitution that you have. 42:14.059 --> 42:18.599 He said very clearly, if you use cavalry as your 42:18.603 --> 42:22.793 major arm, your state will be an aristocracy. 42:22.789 --> 42:26.889 If you use hoplites, your state will be, 42:26.887 --> 42:32.347 what he calls a politea, a moderate regime. 42:32.349 --> 42:37.379 If you use a navy, your state will be a democracy 42:37.379 --> 42:41.779 in which the lower classes are dominant. 42:41.780 --> 42:44.290 So, there's this real connection and that's the way 42:44.292 --> 42:47.572 they really thought about it. So, what we will see as the 42:47.567 --> 42:50.997 polis is invented, moving away from aristocratic 42:51.001 --> 42:54.051 rule in the pre-polis days or in the early 42:54.053 --> 42:58.063 polis days--you will see a middling group of citizens who 42:58.060 --> 42:59.920 are, according to this 42:59.917 --> 43:02.907 interpretation, Hanson's farmers who are also 43:02.914 --> 43:06.804 going to gain the political capacity to participate in the 43:06.796 --> 43:11.136 town councils, and who are the hoplites but it 43:11.138 --> 43:15.958 will exclude the poor, who will not have political 43:15.956 --> 43:18.266 rights. Most Greek states, 43:18.266 --> 43:22.906 just as they never moved beyond the hoplite style of fighting, 43:22.909 --> 43:27.009 never go beyond the oligarchical style of 43:27.010 --> 43:33.260 constitution which gives only hoplites political rights in the 43:33.264 --> 43:36.214 state. Okay, stay there because who 43:36.208 --> 43:40.318 knows, there are 20 million other things I might have said, 43:40.320 --> 43:43.910 but instead let me give you the opportunity to ask questions 43:43.912 --> 43:47.242 that you would like to raise, particularly if you want to ask 43:47.244 --> 43:49.204 about how they fought, as long as we have a 43:49.201 --> 43:52.091 phalanx here we might as well use it if we need too. 43:52.090 --> 43:56.390 Are there any questions? Yeah?Student: How 43:56.394 --> 43:58.434 would they practice because weren't they prominently 43:58.425 --> 44:00.805 farmers?Professor Donald Kagan: The answer is they 44:00.814 --> 44:04.204 damn near didn't. That is, you've got a very key 44:04.203 --> 44:06.573 point; there was very little military 44:06.567 --> 44:08.137 training. On the other hand, 44:08.137 --> 44:10.967 you don't need very much. Think about it, 44:10.974 --> 44:14.924 what are the skills? What are the technicalities? 44:14.920 --> 44:21.230 If I'm the general and so I say--what do I say? 44:21.230 --> 44:25.920 Charge! Now we're engaging each other, 44:25.923 --> 44:30.023 what do I say? Fight harder men! 44:30.019 --> 44:34.799 Now we're in trouble and I say, don't run away! 44:34.800 --> 44:38.150 There are no techniques, there are no maneuvers, 44:38.147 --> 44:41.917 there are no--you can't do anything and so they didn't 44:41.921 --> 44:46.681 practice very much, except one stunning exception, 44:46.675 --> 44:50.235 the Spartans. They were not farmers as we 44:50.239 --> 44:53.909 shall see, and therefore, they spent their lives 44:53.911 --> 44:56.721 practicing warfare. It paid off; 44:56.720 --> 44:59.840 they usually won. So, the answer is basically 44:59.843 --> 45:03.063 that the ordinary Greeks did not engage in very much 45:03.059 --> 45:06.779 practice.Student: If they're all fighting in this 45:06.781 --> 45:09.651 hoplite style, how do all of these great Greek 45:09.647 --> 45:12.547 military personas develop, who are famed for being such 45:12.550 --> 45:14.740 wonderful, individual soldiers, 45:14.735 --> 45:17.035 if there's no real hand-to-hand, 45:17.038 --> 45:21.048 one-on-one?Professor Donald Kagan: Well, 45:21.050 --> 45:23.820 there is nobody out there that you could see. 45:23.820 --> 45:26.190 Typically, we don't have guys like that. 45:26.190 --> 45:29.540 The guys who are famous are the generals who get credit for 45:29.540 --> 45:32.430 putting together a nice formation when it's not the 45:32.428 --> 45:37.518 simple one I've just given you. Just to be a little bit more 45:37.517 --> 45:40.627 plain about that. In the famous battle of 45:40.631 --> 45:43.461 Marathon, which I will tell you about when we get there, 45:43.460 --> 45:47.670 one of its features is that because the Greeks were 45:47.670 --> 45:51.460 numerically badly inferior to the Persians, 45:51.460 --> 45:53.430 they had this problem of covering the line. 45:53.429 --> 45:56.799 So, they could have thinned out their entire phalanx, 45:56.796 --> 45:59.936 but that would have given the Persians a chance to break 45:59.935 --> 46:06.575 through anywhere and everywhere, and so what Miltiades did was 46:06.582 --> 46:14.982 to make his wings heavier, deeper and very dangerously 46:14.975 --> 46:19.875 thin in the middle. It was a gamble. 46:19.880 --> 46:25.250 The gamble was our wings will crush their wings and turn in on 46:25.251 --> 46:28.511 them from behind and from the side, 46:28.510 --> 46:33.560 and set them a running before they break through our middle. 46:33.559 --> 46:40.739 As Wellington said at Waterloo, it was a damn near thing. 46:40.739 --> 46:45.749 The Persians broke through the middle but just before that, 46:45.751 --> 46:50.591 the Athenian wings crushed the Persian wings and set them 46:50.590 --> 46:54.900 running for their ships. So, everybody says what a 46:54.898 --> 47:00.368 genius Miltiades was. Similarly, in naval battles 47:00.366 --> 47:08.116 Themistocles at Salamis comes up with a clever device. 47:08.120 --> 47:10.540 So, you see what I'm driving at; we know those guys. 47:10.539 --> 47:14.849 You never really hear of Joe Blow who killed thirty-four guys 47:14.847 --> 47:18.447 in the phalanx. There must have been some guys 47:18.451 --> 47:21.901 like that but you just don't hear about those fellows. 47:21.900 --> 47:24.410 Any other questions? Yeah.Student: When 47:24.406 --> 47:26.046 do they just pull out their swords and start 47:26.048 --> 47:28.258 hacking?Professor Donald Kagan: When they had no 47:28.262 --> 47:30.142 spear.Student: So, the spears 47:30.140 --> 47:32.750 broke?Professor Donald Kagan: Yeah, 47:32.754 --> 47:35.894 they would--these spears must have broken like mad. 47:35.889 --> 47:38.749 And so the thing to do, unless you have something else, 47:38.750 --> 47:41.450 you would go for your sword.Student: It's 47:41.451 --> 47:44.521 not like you go out and you start fighting people with just 47:44.523 --> 47:46.963 your body shield and you're happy there. 47:46.960 --> 47:49.050 Professor Donald Kagan: Always, oh yes always. 47:49.050 --> 47:52.260 You never, according to my understanding of this, 47:52.258 --> 47:55.598 you never, never want to be without your shield. 47:55.599 --> 47:57.949 That means, you never want to be away from your 47:57.951 --> 48:00.871 phalanx. This is disputed. 48:00.869 --> 48:05.019 This is exactly--these are the grounds on which this new 48:05.022 --> 48:09.252 school--one of the ways in which they argue otherwise. 48:09.250 --> 48:12.230 I'll say a little bit about that, when I get through with 48:12.234 --> 48:13.544 phalanx. I just want 48:13.538 --> 48:15.458 to--yeah.Student: What about projectiles? 48:15.460 --> 48:17.650 Professor Donald Kagan: These guys don't have 48:17.652 --> 48:20.302 any projectiles. However, there are light arm 48:20.295 --> 48:24.555 troops made up of those two poor to be in the phalanx, 48:24.559 --> 48:31.709 who do use projectiles and the projectiles are arrows, 48:31.709 --> 48:36.969 javelins, or stones thrown by slings. 48:36.969 --> 48:40.889 The trouble with them is none of them has any range. 48:40.890 --> 48:46.070 Think about that for a moment. Get out of your mind Henry V, 48:46.069 --> 48:51.309 forget the Battle of Agincourt. They don't have--those men in 48:51.307 --> 48:56.417 Lincoln green with the enormous long bows, made out of good 48:56.423 --> 49:01.243 English composite whatever, who can fire the thing 49:01.244 --> 49:07.474 thousands of yards and penetrate and kill the French nobility. 49:07.469 --> 49:12.529 How many of you have seen Henry V in the Laurence Olivier 49:12.533 --> 49:15.483 version 1945? They got this miserable modern 49:15.479 --> 49:18.549 one with the sort of Vietnam like conditions that they have 49:18.551 --> 49:21.061 out there; it's raining all through the 49:21.064 --> 49:23.994 God-damned battle of Agincourt. Great battle, 49:23.988 --> 49:27.408 it's got to have sunshine, blue skies, terrific--well, 49:27.407 --> 49:32.157 never mind. They had very poor bows and 49:32.159 --> 49:34.959 arrows. They didn't have the composite 49:34.955 --> 49:37.885 bow, didn't have power. It would have had a hard time 49:37.887 --> 49:41.267 getting through the shields and it didn't have any distance. 49:41.269 --> 49:44.109 But they were worth something because they did this. 49:44.110 --> 49:47.940 Actually, those guys would be useful, not so much, 49:47.944 --> 49:51.474 hardly at all during the scrum of the phalanx, 49:51.466 --> 49:54.436 but should one side be retreating. 49:54.440 --> 49:58.240 That's where they do it harm. Once you throw your shield away 49:58.237 --> 50:00.477 and you're running, anybody who's got a weapon can 50:00.477 --> 50:02.257 take you out, and that's what would have 50:02.260 --> 50:03.780 happened. Yeah?Student: So, 50:03.784 --> 50:05.584 is it unlikely that someone like the fellow that was named 50:05.584 --> 50:07.004 begin with M. that we read about from the 50:06.995 --> 50:08.935 selection.Professor Donald Kagan: Do you mean, 50:08.940 --> 50:10.800 Miltiades?Student: No, the archer in the 50:10.799 --> 50:12.769 Iliad.Professor Donald Kagan: Oh, 50:12.770 --> 50:14.570 in the Iliad. Student: Is it 50:14.574 --> 50:16.284 unlikely that people would actually have been able to do 50:16.279 --> 50:17.549 anything like that?Professor Donald 50:17.550 --> 50:20.080 Kagan: Yes, of course, the Iliad has 50:20.081 --> 50:23.721 various people who are very good archers, who could kill the 50:23.718 --> 50:27.028 other guy. I'm sure there were bows and 50:27.033 --> 50:31.433 arrows at that time, but they did not yet have the 50:31.431 --> 50:36.011 kind of armor that they would have in this time. 50:36.010 --> 50:39.000 So, they would have been more vulnerable and you wouldn't have 50:38.999 --> 50:42.069 to have such a powerful bow. Of course Paris, 50:42.067 --> 50:46.457 isn't he the one who kills Achilles, right? 50:46.460 --> 50:48.910 But Achilles, of course, he got him in the 50:48.909 --> 50:51.179 heel where he didn't have any armor. 50:51.180 --> 50:54.430 Anything else? Yeah?Student: I 50:54.426 --> 50:58.136 mean, isn't it somewhat inefficient to load it really 50:58.138 --> 50:59.678 deep, because I assume if a spear is 50:59.679 --> 51:01.169 only six feet long, what are people in the back 51:01.166 --> 51:02.456 going to be doing?Professor Donald 51:02.460 --> 51:04.780 Kagan: Very good yes, and that's a big argument that 51:04.784 --> 51:08.714 nobody has a good answer for. The traditional answer is that 51:08.705 --> 51:13.835 these guys actually did press up against the rows in front of 51:13.836 --> 51:18.706 them and that this provided a momentum that gave the front 51:18.711 --> 51:23.501 line an advantage in beating the enemy facing them. 51:23.500 --> 51:24.650 You can see all kinds of troubles. 51:24.650 --> 51:26.810 Why didn't the guys in the middle get crushed? 51:26.809 --> 51:31.469 I don't have any very good answers for that and yet it is 51:31.469 --> 51:35.629 one part of the traditional explanation is this, 51:35.630 --> 51:38.980 and it's a very important one and much debated, 51:38.976 --> 51:43.266 that at a critical time in the battle one technique would be 51:43.268 --> 51:46.468 one side would give one great big shove. 51:46.469 --> 51:49.389 The word in Greek is othismos, 51:49.394 --> 51:52.974 and if that was successful as it might be, 51:52.969 --> 51:56.829 it could knock down the lines of the front guys and get the 51:56.831 --> 51:59.551 other side running. There's ancient evidence, 51:59.552 --> 52:02.522 there's an ancient source for that, that says that's what 52:02.515 --> 52:05.525 happened and that's one of the things that we have to deal 52:05.530 --> 52:07.520 with. The critics of this point of 52:07.516 --> 52:10.216 view would say that's impossible and inconceivable. 52:10.219 --> 52:13.769 Another possible explanation of the significance 52:13.768 --> 52:16.968 of depth is, remember, our poor victim here. 52:16.969 --> 52:21.439 If you multiply her, then you want to have as much 52:21.436 --> 52:26.536 depth to fill in behind to close that hole as you can, 52:26.539 --> 52:30.199 so that that would make your phalanx more sturdy, 52:30.200 --> 52:34.060 because you could take more casualties without breaking, 52:34.060 --> 52:39.010 that seems reasonable to me. But again, I can't imagine how 52:39.012 --> 52:41.902 these guys fought in these circumstances. 52:41.900 --> 52:46.500 I really can't see it. I mean, it's a pity we can't 52:46.503 --> 52:50.993 kill people in experiments deliberately anymore, 52:50.991 --> 52:56.721 because we need to see how this works, but I can't do it. 52:56.719 --> 53:00.079 But I do think that that makes a reasonable amount of sense. 53:00.079 --> 53:02.389 Anything else on the mechanics of our phalanx? 53:02.389 --> 53:06.219 Yes?Student: How did they determine when two armies 53:06.216 --> 53:09.096 would charge each other?Professor Donald 53:09.101 --> 53:14.601 Kagan: To charge each other, is that what you're saying? 53:14.599 --> 53:21.169 Well, what happens is one army is invading the land of the 53:21.168 --> 53:23.358 other. So, it's--In a way, 53:23.358 --> 53:27.228 it decided when the fighting is going to take place up to a 53:27.229 --> 53:29.429 point. Namely, it's going to happen 53:29.429 --> 53:32.689 this summer, because we're coming and it's going to happen 53:32.687 --> 53:35.617 this week; it's going to happen tomorrow, 53:35.620 --> 53:39.610 if you don't run away. So, now, the defenders have to 53:39.606 --> 53:43.986 do it, in a perfect situation, I am marching towards their 53:43.990 --> 53:47.300 corn crop, grain crop, at the time just 53:47.297 --> 53:50.837 before the grain is going to be harvested. 53:50.840 --> 53:54.700 If we cut down that grain you don't eat this winter. 53:54.699 --> 53:58.349 You get in front of the grain, when we say. 53:58.349 --> 54:02.049 So, that would be the classic way of determining how it works. 54:02.050 --> 54:05.520 It's never--it probably wasn't quite that easy but the invading 54:05.515 --> 54:08.975 side goes for something that the other side will have to defend 54:08.981 --> 54:12.001 and that determines when the fighting takes place. 54:12.000 --> 54:16.170 Yes sir?Student: How long would most of these battles 54:16.167 --> 54:19.737 last?Professor Donald Kagan: Hard to say. 54:19.739 --> 54:26.779 Hard to imagine anybody doing this for more than a couple of 54:26.784 --> 54:29.534 hours. So that would be my guess, 54:29.525 --> 54:33.165 but nobody knows for sure. But I think if you can imagine, 54:33.167 --> 54:35.817 up to a couple of hours would be about right. 54:35.820 --> 54:39.280 That's worth mentioning, how long is a war? 54:39.280 --> 54:42.550 A couple of hours, because typically there's just 54:42.545 --> 54:45.355 one battle; one side beats the other and 54:45.363 --> 54:47.713 that's the war for now. Until we get, 54:47.705 --> 54:50.285 of course, this is early days, until we get to the 54:50.289 --> 54:53.449 Peloponnesian War when things change radically in fighting in 54:53.454 --> 54:55.314 general, but this is your standard. 54:55.309 --> 54:58.559 Yes sir?Student: You had mentioned that the losing 54:58.557 --> 55:00.987 side casualty numbers were approximately about 55:00.992 --> 55:03.592 15%?Professor Donald Kagan: Yeah, 55:03.590 --> 55:04.990 it could be that bad.Student: If 55:04.993 --> 55:06.433 you're fighting for an hour or two hours, 55:06.429 --> 55:08.049 it just seems like that would be such a low 55:08.045 --> 55:09.925 number.Professor Donald Kagan: Well, 55:09.929 --> 55:13.049 you got to realize that much of the time, until the 55:13.047 --> 55:16.167 phalanx breaks, there's not a lot of killing 55:16.165 --> 55:18.995 that can go on. You can only kill just a few 55:18.999 --> 55:22.179 people while they're still defending themselves in this 55:22.180 --> 55:25.380 manner. I have to believe that the bulk 55:25.379 --> 55:30.519 of the killing took place on the flight and so that's why that 55:30.515 --> 55:33.655 works out. Student: What do you 55:33.663 --> 55:36.423 do the rest of the time? Just push?Professor 55:36.416 --> 55:38.816 Donald Kagan: If you're not hitting, you're pushing, 55:38.820 --> 55:40.760 that's the theory.Student: An 55:40.761 --> 55:43.201 hour?Professor Donald Kagan: Or two. 55:43.199 --> 55:46.129 Yes?Student: How do they decide who went in front 55:46.128 --> 55:48.458 and who went in the back?Professor Donald 55:48.461 --> 55:50.051 Kagan: No, that's right. 55:50.050 --> 55:54.050 They would have decided on the basis of what was most effective 55:54.047 --> 55:57.967 and you would not want old guys. By the way, how old are the 55:57.969 --> 56:00.339 people out there is a good question. 56:00.340 --> 56:06.900 Typically, the youngest guys are twenty, and typically the 56:06.902 --> 56:11.562 oldest guys are 45, but everybody was liable to 56:11.558 --> 56:16.448 military service in these states until they were about 60. 56:16.449 --> 56:20.329 So, you can imagine in certain circumstances there would be 56:20.331 --> 56:24.011 guys that old back there, but fundamentally it's between 56:24.012 --> 56:27.372 20 and 45. Okay, I would have thought that 56:27.365 --> 56:30.945 the front row would exclude the older people. 56:30.950 --> 56:34.730 You want tough guys up front; you don't want your front line 56:34.728 --> 56:37.208 being broken. So, the guys up front are 56:37.208 --> 56:40.878 going--the younger you are, chances are you're going to be 56:40.877 --> 56:43.577 more physically strong than older guys. 56:43.579 --> 56:46.049 Probably, though, you wouldn't want to have the 56:46.045 --> 56:49.155 very youngest guys up front, because another thing you want 56:49.155 --> 56:52.075 is experience. People who have seen this 56:52.078 --> 56:55.208 before, done it before, lived through it, 56:55.211 --> 56:59.051 and now you can count on them not to run away, 56:59.050 --> 57:02.070 better than you can on a fresh recruit who's never done this 57:02.069 --> 57:04.469 before. So, I would have thought--so 57:04.472 --> 57:07.462 you see I'm speculating to a certain degree, 57:07.456 --> 57:11.546 but I would have thought you would have guys 25 to 35 in the 57:11.550 --> 57:15.400 front couple or three lines, and then behind them younger 57:15.395 --> 57:18.225 men and then maybe the older men at the very back, 57:18.230 --> 57:21.770 or maybe because you wanted to be sure that that last row 57:21.766 --> 57:24.036 didn't turn and run away too fast, 57:24.039 --> 57:27.729 you might have some who were not quite so old at the very 57:27.728 --> 57:31.678 back, but it's all a question of what's effective and why; 57:31.679 --> 57:32.919 that would be my thinking about that. 57:32.920 --> 57:36.870 Yes?Student: [Inaudible]Professor 57:36.868 --> 57:40.078 Donald Kagan: In what? Normally. 57:40.079 --> 57:42.429 I say that a typical phalanx is eight; 57:42.429 --> 57:46.139 however, by the time you get down to the fourth century and 57:46.144 --> 57:49.864 people are doing all kinds of new and innovative things, 57:49.860 --> 57:56.120 we hear that the left wing of the Boeotian army at Leuktra was 57:56.124 --> 58:00.264 fifty men deep. Now, what are you going to do 58:00.262 --> 58:03.232 with that? But it's clearly a fact. 58:03.230 --> 58:07.290 There were previous examples of people trying to have a deep 58:07.292 --> 58:11.772 wing that would do things, but if you take me back to my 58:11.770 --> 58:17.050 primitive phalanx here about 600-650 they're not doing 58:17.047 --> 58:20.577 that stuff yet. But I think that depth would 58:20.583 --> 58:24.843 have been determined by how many soldiers you had available. 58:24.840 --> 58:29.200 You would have made your phalanx as deep as you 58:29.195 --> 58:33.135 could, and once you had the width established. 58:33.139 --> 58:37.539 Yeah?Student: Would the winner of the war slaughter 58:37.537 --> 58:41.497 the enemy that would fall behind or would they give them 58:41.502 --> 58:45.832 back?Professor Donald Kagan: The question is would 58:45.827 --> 58:49.647 the defeated army--would the winning army kill all the 58:49.648 --> 58:54.548 defeated guys who were still on the battlefield at the time? 58:54.550 --> 58:57.030 It would vary. They could capture them. 58:57.030 --> 58:59.230 There's a reason to capture them. 58:59.230 --> 59:02.410 You could demand ransom for them. 59:02.409 --> 59:05.609 So, there would be some inclination to capture men 59:05.614 --> 59:08.714 rather than to kill them. On the other hand, 59:08.706 --> 59:12.456 guys who were engaged in a fight of the kind we must 59:12.464 --> 59:16.354 imagine get very angry; these guys killed a buddy next 59:16.345 --> 59:18.455 to you. So, there would have been a 59:18.456 --> 59:21.216 certain amount of just furious killing going on, 59:21.218 --> 59:24.568 but I don't think that would have been the way you planned 59:24.567 --> 59:27.377 the game. You kill enough guys to achieve 59:27.379 --> 59:30.909 your goal and if you're still rational you take the rest 59:30.909 --> 59:33.919 prisoner. I think would be the way to go. 59:33.920 --> 59:38.230 Yes?Student: What would stop an opposing army from 59:38.231 --> 59:41.251 flanking you?Professor Donald Kagan: 59:41.249 --> 59:45.419 What would stop it would be--why didn't they flank each 59:45.417 --> 59:48.697 other? Boy, if they could, they would. 59:48.699 --> 59:52.399 But the difficulty is, if you take your left flank and 59:52.395 --> 59:55.315 move it out here so you can flank this guy, 59:55.323 --> 59:58.743 one of two things has to happen to your army. 59:58.739 --> 1:00:02.069 Either you open a nice hole between yourself and the rest of 1:00:02.074 --> 1:00:05.014 your army, in which case somebody's going to get very 1:00:05.012 --> 1:00:08.462 badly killed and you're going to be on the run very soon, 1:00:08.460 --> 1:00:11.120 or you have to somehow communicate to the rest of the 1:00:11.117 --> 1:00:13.107 army, "everybody come over this way," 1:00:13.110 --> 1:00:17.100 which will still leave that flank open to being flanked by 1:00:17.099 --> 1:00:20.089 the other side. That's what prevents that from 1:00:20.090 --> 1:00:22.730 happening, we just don't see that going on. 1:00:22.730 --> 1:00:26.370 Yeah?Student: Was it just the Greek sense of honor 1:00:26.374 --> 1:00:29.904 and propriety that kept them from doing more creative sneak 1:00:29.896 --> 1:00:33.656 attack?Professor Donald Kagan: It used to be thought 1:00:33.662 --> 1:00:36.822 before people were very careful--we know that they do 1:00:36.820 --> 1:00:40.890 every terrible thing in the world in the Peloponnesian War. 1:00:40.889 --> 1:00:44.239 Whatever the rules were before, they're off when we get into 1:00:44.238 --> 1:00:47.178 the Peloponnesian War. There's just no dirty trick 1:00:47.177 --> 1:00:49.277 that anybody fails to do if it can. 1:00:49.280 --> 1:00:54.020 But they surely must have done it before too. 1:00:54.019 --> 1:00:57.789 When you're serious, any way to win will do, 1:00:57.794 --> 1:01:02.364 but mostly you could make a virtue of a necessity. 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:04.670 The kind of battle I've been describing to you, 1:01:04.673 --> 1:01:06.843 a nice flat field, two armies coming at each 1:01:06.836 --> 1:01:08.916 other, there's not much you can do in 1:01:08.918 --> 1:01:11.598 the way of trickery, and so you can take a high tone 1:01:11.601 --> 1:01:13.941 and say, anybody who fights any other 1:01:13.944 --> 1:01:17.694 way is a no good coward. In fact, we have some claim, 1:01:17.690 --> 1:01:22.260 and a Roman writer later on, that there was a treaty back in 1:01:22.264 --> 1:01:27.344 the eighth century B.C. between a couple of states in 1:01:27.336 --> 1:01:33.546 Euboea, that said they would never use missiles of any kind, 1:01:33.553 --> 1:01:38.843 because that was cowardly. The only legitimate fighting is 1:01:38.839 --> 1:01:41.569 man against man, shield against shield, 1:01:41.573 --> 1:01:45.173 chest against chest, everybody else is a pussy. 1:01:45.170 --> 1:01:50.930 So, I think that became--and whatever the reality was, 1:01:50.926 --> 1:01:57.116 that story was always being told, that's the way for a man 1:01:57.117 --> 1:02:01.387 to fight; anything other than that is 1:02:01.394 --> 1:02:05.324 open to suspicion. Okay, thank you very much 1:02:05.324 --> 1:02:07.814 hoplites. A little hand for the hoplites. 1:02:17.180 --> 1:02:19.970 Just a few more little details. 1:02:25.230 --> 1:02:26.980 The situation begins at--remember, 1:02:26.984 --> 1:02:29.644 the two sides are opposite each other in the field, 1:02:29.641 --> 1:02:33.581 probably in the morning. Each side conducts sacrifices 1:02:33.578 --> 1:02:38.388 in which they ask the gods for assistance in the battle, 1:02:38.389 --> 1:02:42.459 sometimes they hope that there will be a favorable omen 1:02:42.464 --> 1:02:46.854 suggesting they're going to win. They have breakfast, 1:02:46.849 --> 1:02:51.759 they drink, and they advance typically to a battle song 1:02:51.763 --> 1:02:56.953 called the paeon which we have, what they sang. 1:02:56.949 --> 1:03:02.459 I don't have the tune but I have the words. 1:03:02.460 --> 1:03:04.720 Does that sound like a good thing to march into battle? 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:09.710 Sounds good to me, I like that. Then would come the battle. 1:03:09.710 --> 1:03:13.240 I talked to you about the pursuit, the aftermath. 1:03:13.239 --> 1:03:16.669 There's just one more thing you need to know about this 1:03:16.670 --> 1:03:23.020 phalanx mode of fighting. When the phalanx fought 1:03:23.020 --> 1:03:30.560 against any other infantry formation the phalanx 1:03:30.562 --> 1:03:34.132 wins; from the time we first hear of 1:03:34.128 --> 1:03:38.288 Greeks fighting non-Greeks, when the Greeks have the 1:03:38.290 --> 1:03:42.380 phalanx, I think I'm right in saying 1:03:42.383 --> 1:03:47.173 they never lose a battle. Finally they do in the, 1:03:47.172 --> 1:03:51.952 I think it's the second century B.C., when King Phillip of 1:03:51.947 --> 1:03:56.637 Macedon has his phalanx fighting against the Roman 1:03:56.639 --> 1:04:00.459 legion and the legion wins, but believe me, 1:04:00.459 --> 1:04:04.559 it was no easy thing for the legion to win even in that 1:04:04.560 --> 1:04:08.420 battle. There was nothing automatic 1:04:08.421 --> 1:04:12.221 about that. So great was the military 1:04:12.215 --> 1:04:18.005 success of the phalanx that the King of Persia who was 1:04:18.013 --> 1:04:23.333 always getting into wars and hiring troops--whenever the 1:04:23.328 --> 1:04:28.738 kings could they hired Greek hoplites to fight for 1:04:28.740 --> 1:04:32.020 them. When prince Cyrus seeks to 1:04:32.018 --> 1:04:36.658 overthrow his brother right after the Peloponnesian War he 1:04:36.663 --> 1:04:41.313 signs up 10,000 veterans of the Peloponnesian War from the 1:04:41.308 --> 1:04:44.408 Peloponnesus, because with 10,000 Greek 1:04:44.405 --> 1:04:49.205 hoplites, he believes that he can conquer the Persian Empire 1:04:49.213 --> 1:04:53.613 and make himself king, even though the numbers are 1:04:53.608 --> 1:04:56.248 fabulous. And those Greeks marched 1,500 1:04:56.246 --> 1:04:59.036 miles into the center of the Persian Empire, 1:04:59.037 --> 1:05:02.537 down into Babylonia, fight the army of the Persian 1:05:02.544 --> 1:05:05.394 king, defeat the army of the Persian king, 1:05:05.392 --> 1:05:09.142 but unfortunately the prince who led them down there is 1:05:09.143 --> 1:05:12.333 killed in the battle, making the victory rather 1:05:12.326 --> 1:05:15.406 pointless, because the whole idea was to make him king. 1:05:15.409 --> 1:05:20.299 So then you have Xenophon writing his Anabasis, 1:05:20.296 --> 1:05:24.446 The March Back, telling the story of how those 1:05:24.445 --> 1:05:29.235 1,500--those 10,000 Greeks rather got back home. 1:05:29.239 --> 1:05:34.809 Just a word for the other side of the argument, 1:05:34.808 --> 1:05:40.598 I want to read you a quotation from Hans Van Wees, 1:05:40.599 --> 1:05:44.319 who is the leading critic of the traditional orthodox 1:05:44.322 --> 1:05:48.512 explanation I just gave you. Here's one, "It is clear that 1:05:48.511 --> 1:05:52.951 the emergence of the hoplite was only the beginning of a lengthy 1:05:52.947 --> 1:05:56.747 process which certainly lasted more than a century, 1:05:56.750 --> 1:06:00.060 and may have lasted more than two centuries, 1:06:00.061 --> 1:06:04.301 leading to the creation of a close ordered hoplites only 1:06:04.296 --> 1:06:08.306 phalanx. The classical hoplite formation 1:06:08.305 --> 1:06:12.405 then was not the long lived military institution of 1:06:12.411 --> 1:06:16.381 scholarly tradition, but merely one phase in a 1:06:16.379 --> 1:06:21.289 history of almost four centuries of slow change towards ever 1:06:21.285 --> 1:06:25.855 denser and more cohesive heavy infantry formations." 1:06:25.860 --> 1:06:31.350 I'll read you one more of his statements, "Those who favor an 1:06:31.346 --> 1:06:37.016 early date for the emergence of the hoplite phalanx rely 1:06:37.016 --> 1:06:42.046 on one argument above all, the new type of shield adopted 1:06:42.047 --> 1:06:46.087 in the late eighth century, unlike its predecessors, 1:06:46.090 --> 1:06:50.960 could be used effectively only in an extremely close and rigid 1:06:50.961 --> 1:06:54.141 formation. Double grip shields thus 1:06:54.142 --> 1:06:59.052 presupposed or imposed an extremely dense formation. 1:06:59.050 --> 1:07:04.510 The tacit assumption is that hoplites stood frontally opposed 1:07:04.507 --> 1:07:09.577 to their enemies like wrestlers, rather than sideways on, 1:07:09.581 --> 1:07:13.131 like fencers, holding their shields parallel 1:07:13.131 --> 1:07:17.141 to their bodies, but artistic representations 1:07:17.142 --> 1:07:20.982 show that this is not how hoplites fought." 1:07:20.980 --> 1:07:25.280 I would say that the crux, the kernel of the critique, 1:07:25.284 --> 1:07:29.294 a lot of things you can argue about--The kernel of the 1:07:29.286 --> 1:07:33.966 critique lies in this assertion which derives its force from an 1:07:33.967 --> 1:07:37.287 interpretation of pictures on pottery. 1:07:37.289 --> 1:07:40.949 You can see I'm not too friendly to that interpretation, 1:07:40.947 --> 1:07:43.937 but it is being taken very, very seriously. 1:07:43.940 --> 1:07:48.100 So seriously, you fortunate Yalies, 1:07:48.096 --> 1:07:54.326 that they will be here on April 9 and 10 of 2008, 1:07:54.329 --> 1:07:58.809 an international conference on the subject of the hoplite 1:07:58.809 --> 1:08:03.049 phalanx and the emergence of the city state. 1:08:03.050 --> 1:08:08.170 It will be a classic Greek agonal confrontation, 1:08:08.171 --> 1:08:14.711 because among the other stars who are going to be engaged, 1:08:14.710 --> 1:08:20.580 Curtis Easton will be one of them, the main event will be a 1:08:20.579 --> 1:08:26.549 one-on-one between Victor Davis Hanson and Hans Van Wees. 1:08:26.550 --> 1:08:30.190 You're all very welcome to come on that occasion. 1:08:30.190 --> 1:08:31.000 See you next time.